Good diet?

[bigsnakegirl785]

Originally Posted by MesoCorney

The vet seemed pretty convinced that the ball python was over weight. Something about that story does not add up. I would not take one example on a forum as truth.

The only thing you can say about garters is that they are generalist. The diet of garters varies over species, location and age. They certainly do not specialize in "bugs" as they can not properly digest their hard exo-skeleton. I know you did not mean an insect by bugs but I thought it needed to be said to avoid confusion. I agree that many species eat amphibians as adults but there is not a reliable source of these in the industry. There is no arguing that mice offer the most similar and parasite free nutritional feeder.

As for worms, an adult male that is two feet long would need at least five worms to sustain itself. From my experience they digest worms very quickly, a matter of days from eating to pooping. So a garter would need to eat this amount about twice a week to sustain itself. The amount of work that would go into finding ten worms a week is not worth the work it takes to capture them when they can eat an amphibian or baby mouse and be good for at least a week. This is of course an extension of my personal logic, but we are apparently not opposed to such an exercise.

There are plenty examples of breeders being successful feeding mice, but I have yet to hear of one feeding a mainly worm diet to an adult garter. There is more than likely a reason for this.

I am not saying that a varied diet is not best, but a mouse based one has been proven to be the most successful with the most species. I try to vary as much as my little guys allow me. They are certainly picky little generalists.

The vet said it was overweight because of the liver, that can only come from too much fat, even if the overall body tone does not indicate so.

I put bugs in quotations because I was not speaking of bugs with exoskeletons, and I wasn't going to list all the types of "bugs" without skeletons. Hence the examples in parentheses, in an attempt to clear up any confusion. I would have included insects if I was speaking of ones with exoskeletons, or simply said insects, not bugs.

Most of the garter keepers I speak with prefer a purely worm diet or a purely fish diet even into adulthood, completely avoiding mice or offering on occasion. But, as you mentioned, worms are not nutritious so I think a varied diet with LOWER AMOUNTS OF RODENTS is the best way to go. You don't have to get rid of them completely, but offering fish and worms in conjunction with rodents could reduce the fat load they are receiving, making for a healthier snake.

Unless the adult is a large female, it doesn't take as many worms as you seem to think. My ~2' male garter could easily have a good meal on only 2, maybe 3 whole worms. But yes, regardless, they need to be fed multiple times a week (2-3 times) with calcium supplements.

[RAD House]

Originally Posted by bigsnakegirl785

The vet said it was overweight because of the liver, that can only come from too much fat, even if the overall body tone does not indicate so.

I put bugs in quotations because I was not speaking of bugs with exoskeletons, and I wasn't going to list all the types of "bugs" without skeletons. Hence the examples in parentheses, in an attempt to clear up any confusion. I would have included insects if I was speaking of ones with exoskeletons, or simply said insects, not bugs.

Most of the garter keepers I speak with prefer a purely worm diet or a purely fish diet even into adulthood, completely avoiding mice or offering on occasion. But, as you mentioned, worms are not nutritious so I think a varied diet with LOWER AMOUNTS OF RODENTS is the best way to go. You don't have to get rid of them completely, but offering fish and worms in conjunction with rodents could reduce the fat load they are receiving, making for a healthier snake.

Unless the adult is a large female, it doesn't take as many worms as you seem to think. My ~2' male garter could easily have a good meal on only 2, maybe 3 whole worms. But yes, regardless, they need to be fed multiple times a week (2-3 times) with calcium supplements.

Well I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this and let people decide for themselves. I guess if the snake is healthy it doesn't really matter in the end.

I knew what you meant by bugs, I just didn't want someone who was new to think you could feed just any bug to a garter.

[bigsnakegirl785]

Originally Posted by MesoCorney

Well I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this and let people decide for themselves. I guess if the snake is healthy it doesn't really matter in the end.

I knew what you meant by bugs, I just didn't want someone who was new to think you could feed just any bug to a garter.

Yeah that's just what I'm personally leaning more towards, and those are the reasons why. Right now they're on a strict rat/mouse pink diet. I know I could get the eastern to take some worms since he was raised on them and maybe fish, but my checkered is very picky and the only other thing I've gotten him to eat were live fish. He refused worms and fish filet, so he may stay on rat pinks, I don't want to screw up his feeding habits.

Yeah I realized that as I was typing, I was hoping to avoid the confusion because of the quotations and the lack of exoskeleton bugs.

[Albert Clark]

Actually, and according to the textbook "Garter Snakes Evolution and Ecology" by Rossman, Ford and Seigel it reads " T. Sirtalis is a generalist, feeding on a remarkably wide variety of prey, including terrestrial and aquatic invertebrates , fish , amphibians and their larvae, Mammals, and even birds. Adults of t.s. parietalis ate voles and Mice". This refers to the "wild type" garter as opposed to our captive populations that we try to keep parasite and disease free on frozen thawed. Mice and rats are complete nutrition.

[bigsnakegirl785]

Originally Posted by Albert Clark

Actually, and according to the textbook "Garter Snakes Evolution and Ecology" by Rossman, Ford and Seigel it reads " T. Sirtalis is a generalist, feeding on a remarkably wide variety of prey, including terrestrial and aquatic invertebrates , fish , amphibians and their larvae, Mammals, and even birds. Adults of t.s. parietalis ate voles and Mice". This refers to the "wild type" garter as opposed to our captive populations that we try to keep parasite and disease free on frozen thawed. Mice and rats are complete nutrition.

Yes they are generalists, but they don't seem to eat mammals all too often, and they most likely only eat helpless offspring since they eat their prey alive and their venom is inefficient on those sorts of prey. More of an opportunistic "oh this is sitting here yum" sort of thing. It's kinda like how a handful of sightings of them eating crickets now causes everyone to say they eat insects, despite it making up virtually no part of their diet and being incredibly difficult to digest.

At least, most of the resources I've found say they make up a marginal portion of their diet, and many don't even list mammals/birds at all.

[Albert Clark]

Variety is the key to a healthy garter and that is what we should take away from this and place it in "the good, no, the best diet". As MC stated we can agree to disagree on these points. However their venom is a neurotoxin that can and does stun toads and rodents to facilitate swallowing.

[macandchz]

i heard tad-poles are a good diet for garters.

[Albert Clark]

Originally Posted by macandchz

i heard tad-poles are a good diet for garters.

They are in moderation, and are even better as a frozen and then thawed offering. Due to the high parasite load of mostly nematodes in tadpoles they should not be a regular feeding. Tadpoles are a natural food of wild garters but may be difficult to obtain for captives. The frozen / thawed process reduces the possibility of transmission of parasites to the garter from the tadpoles.

[Albert Clark]

Originally Posted by prairiepanda

I've been wondering this for a while: does anyone feed live fish to garters by putting them in a water dish and letting the snake hunt for it?

Feeding f/t makes more sense to me, although I've seen people serve live fish on a plate or paper, but I'm just curious whether anyone serves swimming fish...

Sometimes you can have reluctant hatchlings who don't eat right away and have to be enticed with live fish. It's usually the uninformed who do continue to feed live swimming fish from a bowl rather than select something frozen thawed. Live fish should only be a treat and not a staple. Fresh fish (safe) w/o thiaminase, is also recommended.