CA BCI - Super Motley - must resist! - Page 2

dannybgoode · 01-12-16, 11:48 PM

I will ask the store re mortality. They are one of the best in the country so they won't bs me but I would be surprised if they were breeding /self snakes with such a problem.

I know they've kept some from previous litters who are doing well - 3 yo and 6` or so.

I'm interested to know more from them and their thoughts on the subject.

dannybgoode · 01-13-16, 04:04 AM

Quick question on the subject of mortality etc - is this a proven genetic trait of ALL super motley boas or just one breeders batch so to speak.

I.e. are the proven cases of high mortality from genetically entirely separate breeding pairs or do all the breeding pairs originate from the ultimately same genetic source?

Bear in mind I am in the UK so the genetic traits, strengths and weaknesses etc could well be different.

bigsnakegirl785 · 01-13-16, 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dannybgoode

Quick question on the subject of mortality etc - is this a proven genetic trait of ALL super motley boas or just one breeders batch so to speak.

I.e. are the proven cases of high mortality from genetically entirely separate breeding pairs or do all the breeding pairs originate from the ultimately same genetic source?

Bear in mind I am in the UK so the genetic traits, strengths and weaknesses etc could well be different.

Yes it is genetically linked to the motley gene itself, just like wobble is linked to the spider gene. Heterozygous motleys are ok, it's just when the gene is homozygous it causes problems. Something about the double motley gene causes muscle deformity. It's not just one batch, it's not just one strain, and where the animal is bred doesn't change anything.

It cannot be bred out, and outcrossing will not solve the issue.

Even if they do happen to survive, they are always deformed, no matter what. The muscles are still weak and underdeveloped. Even if they survive, it doesn't make breeding the animals any more ethical because their muscles are still underdeveloped.

If the ones at the shop are Central American motleys, it would explain why they're so old, the CA motleys seem to be ever so slightly healthier than the Colombians. But breeders should still strive to not breed them because they still have muscle deformities and they still generally perish. We don't know what kind of invisible problems the muscle deformities cause, even when they survive.

bigsnakegirl785 · 01-13-16, 07:47 AM

But my question really is: how on earth did they get two 3 year olds to breed? A 3 year old female is nowhere near old enough to breed, and would pretty much slug out.

EDIT: re-read, I'm tired and stressed out from a malfunctioned heater excuse me.

Do you have pictures of the current body condition of the super motleys?

dross9615 · 01-13-16, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigsnakegirl785

Yes it is genetically linked to the motley gene itself, just like wobble is linked to the spider gene. Heterozygous motleys are ok, it's just when the gene is homozygous it causes problems. Something about the double motley gene causes muscle deformity. It's not just one batch, it's not just one strain, and where the animal is bred doesn't change anything.

It cannot be bred out, and outcrossing will not solve the issue.

Even if they do happen to survive, they are always deformed, no matter what. The muscles are still weak and underdeveloped. Even if they survive, it doesn't make breeding the animals any more ethical because their muscles are still underdeveloped.

If the ones at the shop are Central American motleys, it would explain why they're so old, the CA motleys seem to be ever so slightly healthier than the Colombians. But breeders should still strive to not breed them because they still have muscle deformities and they still generally perish. We don't know what kind of invisible problems the muscle deformities cause, even when they survive.

(Also 3 years is old for a super motley, but not that old. It's not until they get 5 or 6 years old that it becomes unusual.)

Glad you mentioned this BSG. I had just saw this thread and was going to mentions something about it. I've actually did some research on this topic extensively(motley's are one of my favorite morphs in boas). it seems like some people of got the CA's to survive and even breed but the one i have seen look very unproportionate and the young even survived but that doesn't mean these snakes are healthy nor do they look the part

the breeder of such animals claims that they are healthy and living well but i really don't know how reliable of a source he is and this could also be an isolated event where he just got some very resilient specimens.

Personally i wouldn't risk purchasing or breeding the animal due to the fact they don't look healthy (nor are they healthy) and honestly its not worth risking the life of the snake

dannybgoode · 01-13-16, 07:56 AM

I'll ask the shop - I may be wrong about them breeding.

As I say it is one of the best shops in the UK so I would be surprised if they were doing anything unethical / contrary to the wellbeing of the animals.

Its the kind of shop that will and has refused to sell animals to people if they think they cannot look after them properly. You cannot for example, just walk in and buy a retic from them. You'd have to convince them you had the time, knowledge, space and money for such a beast.

I will report back accordingly...

dross9615 · 01-13-16, 07:59 AM

Oh and by the way boas with the eclipse morph have the exact same look without the deformities grant it you will be spending $1000-$2000 to acquire one

**Andy_G** · 01-13-16, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigsnakegirl785

But my question really is: how on earth did they get two 3 year olds to breed? A 3 year old female is nowhere near old enough to breed, and would pretty much slug out.

EDIT: re-read, I'm tired and stressed out from a malfunctioned heater excuse me.

Do you have pictures of the current body condition of the super motleys?

It is very possible to breed nicaraguans in their 3rd year. They mature a bit quicker than larger or more normal sized localities, as do most dwarfs. Saying that...I don't see any reason why one should do so.

Super motleys die. Pretty much clear cut. Never pay very much for one if you want to purchase one.

bigsnakegirl785 · 01-13-16, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy_G

It is very possible to breed nicaraguans in their 3rd year. They mature a bit quicker than larger or more normal sized localities, as do most dwarfs. Saying that...I don't see any reason why one should do so.

Super motleys die. Pretty much clear cut. Never pay very much for one if you want to purchase one.

I guess I didn't make it clear enough in my response, you can breed a 3 year old female, but they aren't mature and it isn't healthy to do so. And generally litters from underaged females results in very poor litters that are either preemies, generally undersized, or mostly/all slugs (same thing with overweight females but that's another matter).

You can breed them at 3 years old, but that doesn't mean a female is mature. You can breed Colombians at 3 years, too, if they're big enough, but generally with poor results (namely the slugging out I mentioned). Being able to breed =/= maturity. With boas, they can breed once they hit a certain size and weight, but females do not reach full maturity until a certain age (generally at 5-6 years of age). If you wait to breed them, they slug out a lot less and have bigger babies.

A 3 year old male on the other hand, is fully sexually mature.

Edit to add: even if a female isn't "up to size," if it's a mature age, it can still breed so long as it's at a healthy weight for incubating babies. Bigger females just tend to have more babies.

**Aaron_S** · 01-13-16, 09:41 AM

Just to weigh in here.

From my understanding, the CA super mots do survive just fine. I have this on good account of a very experienced keeper/breeder here in Canada.

For whatever reason they seem to be stronger so I trust this resource. He does extensive research before he gets into projects.

With that said, our projects at RE are built around eclipses. I don't think we have discussed pairing for super motleys as the other combos are waaay cooler.

**Andy_G** · 01-13-16, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigsnakegirl785

I guess I didn't make it clear enough in my response, you can breed a 3 year old female, but they aren't mature and it isn't healthy to do so. And generally litters from underaged females results in very poor litters that are either preemies, generally undersized, or mostly/all slugs (same thing with overweight females but that's another matter).

You can breed them at 3 years old, but that doesn't mean a female is mature. You can breed Colombians at 3 years, too, if they're big enough, but generally with poor results (namely the slugging out I mentioned). Being able to breed =/= maturity. With boas, they can breed once they hit a certain size and weight, but females do not reach full maturity until a certain age (generally at 5-6 years of age). If you wait to breed them, they slug out a lot less and have bigger babies.

A 3 year old male on the other hand, is fully sexually mature.

Edit to add: even if a female isn't "up to size," if it's a mature age, it can still breed so long as it's at a healthy weight for incubating babies. Bigger females just tend to have more babies.

Just to be clear, at no point in my previous post did I state that the earlier mature age of certain localities has solely to do with smaller adult size. I am fully aware that maturity and reaching adult size are very different, but the fact remains that nics as well as certain other localities do mature at younger ages. Nicaraguans in particular are notorious for being able to breed quite successfully at a younger age quite consistently. No idea who told you to that the magic number is 5 years for mature female boas, but there is nothing wrong with it of course. Better than someone telling you to try them at 2! Lots of people do 4 years, some do 5, although the latter are normally breeding BCC. If the female has the mature muscle mass and has not been power fed and is of proper condition, then she's ready.

Also something to note and not for you in particular...males can breed as young as 18-24 months of age no matter the locality. I've bred males as young as 18 months with success, but I have never tried to breed a female before their 4th season. Never got many slugs but I have only bred boas in particular a handful of times. As well, a big female may have larger litters but will also generally recover slower. The best breeder females I've owned were nice solid 6'-6.5' 5+ year old. I also had one 8' het albino that I received at 6years of age, and she would only produce one out of every 3 years for me, but the litters were huge!

Aaron, I thought super motley centrals were just as plagued as colombians. I stand corrected and trust you 100%!

bigsnakegirl785 · 01-14-16, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy_G

Just to be clear, at no point in my previous post did I state that the earlier mature age of certain localities has solely to do with smaller adult size. I am fully aware that maturity and reaching adult size are very different, but the fact remains that nics as well as certain other localities do mature at younger ages. Nicaraguans in particular are notorious for being able to breed quite successfully at a younger age quite consistently. No idea who told you to that the magic number is 5 years for mature female boas, but there is nothing wrong with it of course. Better than someone telling you to try them at 2! Lots of people do 4 years, some do 5, although the latter are normally breeding BCC. If the female has the mature muscle mass and has not been power fed and is of proper condition, then she's ready.

Also something to note and not for you in particular...males can breed as young as 18-24 months of age no matter the locality. I've bred males as young as 18 months with success, but I have never tried to breed a female before their 4th season. Never got many slugs but I have only bred boas in particular a handful of times. As well, a big female may have larger litters but will also generally recover slower. The best breeder females I've owned were nice solid 6'-6.5' 5+ year old. I also had one 8' het albino that I received at 6years of age, and she would only produce one out of every 3 years for me, but the litters were huge!

Aaron, I thought super motley centrals were just as plagued as colombians. I stand corrected and trust you 100%!

Yes I realize males are sexually mature younger, hence why I said the males at least would be mature at 3 years old. I personally wouldn't breed an 18 month old, because I've heard of horror stories of ripped off hemipenes in ball python pairings, and even if it's not likely I would be paranoid. Besides, what's another year, year and a half? I'd like my male to be a good 3.5'-4' at minimum, and that's more the size of a 2-3 year old, 18 month old maybe but they don't always get that big that early. I hear big 6' males are problem breeders, but if a fit male is as eager as my 6.5' male is it may not be as much of a problem. The crazy snake tries to court me every time I take him out. -.- Poor guy doesn't know he's pet-only.

With the breeders who favor slow-growing their boas and waiting for the female to reach full sexual maturity, the youngest I've heard them breeding Colombians and BCC at least is 4.5 years, so I just rounded it up to 5 years.

I have heard even the dwarf locales mature about the same as the bigger ones, but maybe that's more due to caution on their part than anything, idk.

dannybgoode · 01-17-16, 12:34 AM

Just a quick update. I went to the store on Friday and asked the breeder about this issue.

He said that Columbians are an absolute no no but that the vast majority of CA's do just fine. He said the very occasional one may have head deformities but this was rare but that morphs in a number of species of snakes can have issues also (Jaguar Carpets for eg)

He has some CA super motleys that are now 6-7' and doing well. Good strong snakes. The guy has been keeping and breeding snakes for 30 odd years so has some experience.

As I said in my OP though I generally prefer the 'normal' snakes anyway. I've never quite understood the tampering around to produce evermore bizarre colouration and genetic issues are one of the reasons as well as the aesthetics but I'd still make the exception for one of these.

Of course differences in taste and opinion are always welcome though - life would be boring if we were all the same and we would never learn if we didn't debate and share our thinking.