Blackheaded Pythons?

[reptiledude987]

For myself theres a few things I would love to add but am held back by the cost. A great basin ETB would be awesome but Ive only ever seen wild caught specimens and due to their sensitive nature there would be a high mortality rate on imports. which being 10-15k or more each isnt plausible for me. the one thing that may be attainable at some point although I havent investigated the price. Theres a certain breeder Ive seen some pics from who has a line of "Tangerine Dream BHPs" which are most certainly very close to the top of the must have list

[Nightflight99]

Interesting discussion. In my experience, the three main factors that drive the demand in the herp trade are 1) the level of availability in the trade, 2) the coloration & pattern, and 3) the potential of the animal to serve as a status animal.

The level of availability in the trade is different from it being rare, since the ladder is a relative term--is it rare in the trade or rare in the wild? Or both? Or just elusive? Or for other reasons unavailable? Ultimately, these dynamics result in the common balance of supply & demand, but a lot of people have a difficult time wrapping their heads around the idea that a certain snake is worth X amount, whereas something else that may appear to be much more desirable is worth significantly less. Lots of reptile keepers like the idea of keeping an animal that is considered to be unique or rare, simply because this appears to be desirable, and to some people it may elevate their own perceived social status within the community. If an animal has the ability to do so, then that in itself makes it desirable to a lot of people, and as a result they are willing to pay significantly for that animal.

The color and pattern of a snake can also be a very strong driver of demand. As a general rule, people tend to enjoy animals that have bright colors, strong contrast, and a clean pattern. If the animal shares those traits to an extend that it would be considered highly unusual, then the demand and the associated price tag may increase significantly. The appetite for the unusual also works into the opposite direction of that spectrum--toward to darker, more monotonous phenotypes. However, the effect in that direction is often (but not always) less severe.

Originally Posted by Minkness

It also comes down to what the actual herp community hobby IS. Is it a breeding circle where every animal has to have a value, or are they pets and should be available for any general enthusiast?

I think the price dynamics within the herpetoculture community are not as different from those of non-living products as we would like for them to be. Supply and demand dictate the prices, which tend to oscillate for non-morphs and act on a negatively-sloped curve for morphs. What this means is that the prices of morphs have a tendency to start high and then drop into a bottomless pit within just a few years. On the other hand, the prices of non-morphs tend to oscillate with availability. Over the years, species that are expensive are bred more frequently, which increases the supply and sends the prices tumbling. At some point, a lot of breeders abandon those projects and the supply eventually drops, allowing for the prices to increase again.

Originally Posted by Minkness

I may get flamed for saying this, but to me, there is no reason to have a SUPER expensive reptile. They do not work, earn money, or provide any actual use. They are a hobby that you can enjoy in pease in your own home. The only 'use' reptiles have is to be bred and sold to make back the money orriginally spent on it, which is kind of sad.

This is the only aspect of your post that I disagree with. It is of course true that reptiles are not working animals, and you (regrettably) cannot train your boa to help you carry groceries or help us fend off attackers. (The occasional Jehovah's Witness at your front door not withstanding...). However, I don't find money that is spent on purely recreational activities to be unjustified. In fact, I would argue that just the opposite is the case--it makes much more sense to spend money on your passions in life, and on those activities or items that bring you personal happiness. If keeping a $5k snake is what brings you happiness, then I see zero problems with spending that money (obviously assuming that you're still able to pay your bills & responsibilities). After all, you cannot really put a price on happiness, nor can you define it for anyone but yourself.

As a general statement, I've never been able to understand people that are so frugal and unwilling to spend money on anything that their entire lives are spent saving for a day that never arrives. Live life to the fullest, be passionate about your interests, and have fun!

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Nightflight99

As a general statement, I've never been able to understand people that are so frugal and unwilling to spend money on anything that their entire lives are spent saving for a day that never arrives. Live life to the fullest, be passionate about your interests, and have fun!

I agree with you here, very much so. I have a couple of good friends that won't spend money on anything. I just don't see the point. When I was saying price is standing in my way, I should've clarified that it's just for now. With just starting school again and not making much money, there's no good reason I should spend that amount of money on a snake. However I can easily justify spending that amount once I'm out of school and am working full-time again.

[Minkness]

Excelnt points of view and well written.

However, your statement of frugality leads me to believe that you come from a higher means than most. To me, 5k is a down payment on a house, a brand new car, some college classes even. It's also a vacation, new cloths, and sooooo much more.

To me it isn't frugality so much as priority. Even a 5k 4 wheeler can be enjoyed by more than just the owner, and, if well maintained, has little cost in upkeep. Not to mention, you may only have 1 of those expensive items. A 3k tv? Bet you don't have 5 of those in your house.... (if you do, then damn....)

However, your point of the definition of rarity is spot on and I couldn't agree more. However, it is still us as humans who put the price tags on stuff, including animals. Their cost and subsiquant rareity is what makes these animals a 'status symbol' just like aomeone who drives a Mercedes. Fewer than most can afford a high end car or a mansion of a house. So those who can are seen differently by those who can't. It's the same with any animal. Certain dog or cat breeds, horses, birds, reptiles, even fish all have a monetary value on them that makes them more 'rare' simply because of the general lack of affordability.

All that being said, I will probably never be able to afford what I REALLY want if it stays that expensive. I haven't been able to save up more than 500$ at a time...and I am one of those unlucky people that every time I get a tax refund, my car breaks down.....or my animals get sick....last year it was both....over 1k to repair my car then another 1k to have a surgery done on a cat that turned out to have cancer and be put down....I actually went into debt on that one and still working ot off little by little.

Obviouslythe high prices aren't a total deterant or else they would never sell. But that's what makes them expensive, hard to come by, and so on. Owned only by the people who CAN drop that cash on a 'non-necessity'.

[reptiledude987]

[QUOTE=Nightflight99;982183] It is of course true that reptiles are not working animals, and you (regrettably) cannot train your boa to help you carry groceries or help us fend off attackers. (The occasional Jehovah's Witness at your front door not withstanding...).[QUOTE=Nightflight99;982183]


Aww really? So does this mean that my attempt to train a guard boa for my house has been in vain? Well back to the drawing board lol.

[Nightflight99]

Originally Posted by Minkness

However, your statement of frugality leads me to believe that you come from a higher means than most.

Ha--don't I wish! I'm a scientist and teach college courses, neither of which are fields that I would recommend to anyone who is attempting to maximize their budget. My point was simply that every one of us must define their own happiness, and thus those items that may seem wasteful at X cost to some of us, may seem perfectly reasonable (or a bargain even) to others.

Originally Posted by Minkness

However, it is still us as humans who put the price tags on stuff, including animals. Their cost and subsiquant rareity is what makes these animals a 'status symbol' just like aomeone who drives a Mercedes. Fewer than most can afford a high end car or a mansion of a house. So those who can are seen differently by those who can't. It's the same with any animal. Certain dog or cat breeds, horses, birds, reptiles, even fish all have a monetary value on them that makes them more 'rare' simply because of the general lack of affordability.

I agree, except in the point that the monetary value is not randomly or ambiguously placed upon those products and then result in a high demand. It is the other way around--the high demand causes the prices of those products to be high. For example, in the 90s and early 2000s, Angolan pythons were not very commonly kept in the trade, because they were considered to be rare in the wild and additionally could not be legally exported. Thus, the supply was low and as a result the available specimens were fetching prices for thousands of dollars. Of course, this made them more attractive to investment breeders, who in turn increased the supply, which dropped the prices significantly. These days, you can find hatchlings for $500 or less, which would have been unthinkable back then. The point is that the supply & demand in the trade set the prices. And yes--I agree with the argument that once something is considered to be valuable, it makes it that much more desirable to many people.

[Nightflight99]

Originally Posted by reptiledude987

Aww really? So does this mean that my attempt to train a guard boa for my house has been in vain? Well back to the drawing board lol.

You just need to get the right species--perhaps a crocodile monitor?

[eminart]

I'm not a rich person, so money is always an issue. But, my dream snake is an eastern indigo, and I set my sights on getting one and did it. My biggest issue is space, time, and, again, money. I have to prioritize each. The indigo was a priority. Maybe someday I'll have enough money, space, and time to add a Boelyn's python to the mix.

[Minkness]

Ah yes. In that I agree, and completely understand as I mentioned the cost of inport/export adds to the cost of the animal (not necessarily the value though). This brings it back around to the concept that 'most' high dollar reptiles are breeder specific thoug, and move only within the society of breeers for a long time before trickling down into the actual pet/hobby trade.

There are MANY BP morphs that I adore just because of their looks, not breeding potential. But they are priced to be sold to other breeders who's job it is to make a proffit from that animal. Back to bananas. Even a male, who would only produce more males, was once suuuuper expensive, so only other breeders got them for a long time. Then BAM. They found out that regardless of gender, anything bred to a banana can make more bananas. They stayed high priced for a bit, but now that there are indeed soooo many of them, they are now closer to a pet price.

Of course there are ebs and flows to anything with value in the beginning. Shoot, I remember when DVDs FIRST came out and were 50$ a peice! Now you can find them 3 for 7$ at walmart.

Mayne the same will happen with some high priced snakes, or maybe not because they will purposfully limit the production.

Neon red sided garters for instance. They are reasonably priced (kind of) but so few people actually breed them that their price has stayed the same for 3 years (that I know of). And, I thinknthe breeders are all in on it because their is almost no difference in price between the breeders. And they aren't exactly difficult to breed. To me, if I can get an albino checkard for 50 bucks (or less depending) then the neon should be closer in price as well. Same snake, same breeding ease, just a different color, and not a morph so shouldn't be hard to reproduce. This is just opinion of course as I have no real understanding of breeding since I am that peraob who really just wants pretty pets...lots and lots of pretty pets lol.

[Minkness]

Em, there is of course a difference between not rich and living paycheck to paycheck. It's easier to save if you are at least middle class income (which is quickly disapearing and a whole other discussion). I'm not sure how long tou actively saved to get Loki (who needs a gf btw...hehe ), but it took me about 6 months just to save up for the repticon trip I took where I got Moko and Horus. Both were super cheap for what they are. I didn't want to drop that much $ on snakes, but I couldn't pass up the deal!

I will also admit, I am impatient and like more 'instant' gratification at times. I made payments on 2 of my cresties for 4 months because the seller was amazing and so nice to hold them that long for me. But again, I just happened to get lucky finding that deal with that breeder. Right now I am lookingat possibly a 3 month payment plan on another snake....though I really shouldn't be.... =/

[eminart]

Originally Posted by Minkness

Em, there is of course a difference between not rich and living paycheck to paycheck. It's easier to save if you are at least middle class income (which is quickly disapearing and a whole other discussion).

Oh, I don't disagree with that at all. Ten years ago, an indigo would have been out of the question, and was. As I've said, I'd lusted after them for nearly 30 years before I finally got one of my own. I finally got to a place financially where I could do it, although it was still a huge expense for us.

[Minkness]

I can see that being a thing. But for 'most' people, they don't wait 30 years. I think you are a rare case willing to go that above and beyond for just one snake.

[reptiledude987]

Originally Posted by Minkness

I can see that being a thing. But for 'most' people, they don't wait 30 years. I think you are a rare case willing to go that above and beyond for just one snake.

Well yes and no mink. I want my great basin etb. Its not happening any time soon. However if the price drops (dramitically) 30 years from now Ill be right on top of it.

[Minkness]

So you are another rareity

I'm not saying it doesn't exist, it's just not very common. By 30 years lives change, sometimes super dramatically. By 30 years I may be able to afford those snakes too. And if that's the case, you bet your bunns I'll be getting my hands on an eastern indigo. But that is so far into the future, I just don't bank on it. Kind of like me eventually owning a super dwarf purple albino sunfire retic. It's a posibility, but not a guarantee.

Also, there is a difference between waiting out the market and being able to afford 'now'. You can try to save up 5k for a snake over 5 years. Totally doable. But, by 5 years, it may not be that much anyway. But hey, if it's only 1k, then yoh have 4k more to spend elsewhere!

[reptiledude987]

I wish the great basins were only 5k. Ideally Id want a pair (as I do for most things I keep). With that sepcies being extreemly sensitive to husbandry being spot on I would anticipate a high mortality rate on impordet wc's as well. Which at current pricing on them (if they can even be located) I would expect the total cost to end up with a healthy pair of long term captives would probably run close to the 100k mark.