Using exhaled breath to create co2?

[Awaiting Abyss]

Originally Posted by formica

probably because it is cheap to do - however I'm not convinced that the levels can be controlled enough to anesthetize first and therefore be humane, i need to see it to believe it tbh

I can't demonstrate because I have no way of showing you, but I watch my mice fall asleep before passing.

[MDT]

First comes anoxia....whether painful or not, a sentient being will sense hunger for air and "struggle" for breath. I have no way of *knowing* what is going through the mouse's brain with the onset of anoxia. I do know that if I can't breathe, I'm gonna move heaven and earth to get my next breath. After that, you become unconscious. With depleted O2 in the cardiac muscle, comes arrhythmia and then death. You are not awake when this happens. But what you go through to get to that point must really suck bad.

[formica]

Originally Posted by MDT

First comes anoxia....whether painful or not, a sentient being will sense hunger for air and "struggle" for breath. I have no way of *knowing* what is going through the mouse's brain with the onset of anoxia. I do know that if I can't breathe, I'm gonna move heaven and earth to get my next breath. After that, you become unconscious. With depleted O2 in the cardiac muscle, comes arrhythmia and then death. You are not awake when this happens. But what you go through to get to that point must really suck bad.

thats why you start with a very low dose, just a couple of % it works as an anesthetic, the rodents do not struggle or show any signs of fear when done properly, but a couple of % too much, will as you say, cause fear, aswell as damaging the lungs and causing all sorts of nasty physiological changes

[MDT]

It's not anesthetic...it's hypercapnea. I'm not aware of any pain receptor involvement with hypercapnea. There is no anesthetic quality, just plain old loss of consciousness before cardiac dysrhythmia and death.

edit: this may be sematics (stuporous vs "anesthetic") however, you should not be lulled into the idea that air hunger and struggle does not occur.

[formica]

CO2 is an anesthetic, and acts as an analgesic, it has been used as one for close to 200 years because of this, its all about the dose, high doses = high levels of stress and pain then anesthesia, low controlled doses = analgesia and anesthesia.

its not used any more because there are less risky and more efficient anesthetics today

i've seen the reaction of rodents to both high and low doses, the diffrence is stark

[MDT]

Dude...it is not an anesthetic or an analgesia. Next time you have surgery, tell them you want CO2 as your anesthetic agent. I'll pay to watch.

[Robin.M]

Originally Posted by formica

CO2 is an anesthetic

Making this statement is as ludicrous as stating, "Blood-letting (often called, "bleeding") is a cure for the common cold".

Sure, CO2 HAS been used in the past (Over 150 years ago) as a Anesthetic. But talking about medical knowledge from 150 years ago is ridiculous.

I'd no sooner take CO2 when going under for surgery then I would let a GP "bleed" me if I went in with Streptococcal pharyngitis (Strep Throat).

Rob

[formica]

yes, it is both...

http://altweb.jhsph.edu/wc6/paper101.pdf

Originally Posted by formica

its not used any more because there are less risky and more efficient anesthetics today

as i said.

[Hotchkiss]

Does anyone know about euthanasia by helium?

[shaunyboy]

Originally Posted by Lankyrob

Just breK their necks, much more humane

^^^^^
this

cheers shaun

[KORBIN5895]

Originally Posted by MDT

Dude...it is not an anesthetic or an analgesia. Next time you have surgery, tell them you want CO2 as your anesthetic agent. I'll pay to watch.

What do you know? How dare you question the medical knowledge of a producer?

[MDT]

Originally Posted by KORBIN5895

What do you know? How dare you question the medical knowledge of a producer?

Yeah, I know...I'm just makin' stuff up. You know...practicing physician and all...I really don't know this stuff.

Next time I'm reducing a dislocated shoulder in the ED, I'm gonna have the patient suck in a whole bunch of CO2 for their pain control. That ought to work. Then, I'm gonna have to correct the hypercapnic acidosis that occurs and hope I haven't killed off brain cells, renal cells, or cardiac muscle. But, hey....Formica says it works, so....

[MDT]

Originally Posted by shaunyboy

^^^^^
this

cheers shaun

^^^^^^^^^ x1000000

[formica]

perhaps you should just read the scientific paper I posted up in my last post.

not only is it very clear not only that CO2 is an analgesic, when used at the right dose, but they have also worked out the mechanism for the first time.

[formica]

Originally Posted by KORBIN5895

What do you know? How dare you question the medical knowledge of a producer?

perhaps you should read it aswell. lots of big in it words tho, dont hurt yourself.