sav stay in burrow all day

[murrindindi]

Originally Posted by Pirarucu

For what it's worth, several Argus keepers on facebook were recently talking about their monitors spending a lot of time underground lately.

Hi, do you happen to have details on the conditions these animals are being kept under during this time?

[mdfmonitor]

Originally Posted by murrindindi

Hi Mark, I would have thought these details would be the likeliest explanation, too?
It`s not to suggest that barometric pressure couldn`t have an effect also, just not my first thought, more especially if it`s a long term behaviour as I thought Wayne`s monitors exhibited (or maybe I`ve misunderstood him over the last year or so) and it`s quite a rare occurrence that regularly gets mentioned?

All i'll say is i thought i had it right a number of years back & i spent many hours sat watching them!! I was wrong.

If your good at watching changes, by the time you've cocked the temps up etc & the humidity a number of times you start to see patterns in their behaviour, you get to a point were you look at the animal & then look at the temp gauge!!

they respond to changes in temps, their poop will tell you if the basking spot flood is right with the size of prey they are eating, again your looking at the animal then at how you need to react.

Keepers like Ben/Krusty/Crocdoc etc who've seen the whole picture as in bred them many times will know just by looking if it's right or not, The other day i re-hydrated his soil box, the temp is around 75f in there so i upped his temps to balance out cold damp dirt, moved up about 2/3c.

A day or so later i noticed he'd started to back fill his dirt box sealing himself in, really muddy water tub, then i realised some prat had left his background temps still set high.

Looked down at the temp gauge & that backed up what the monitor told me, also he'd been basking at 180f & i never notice any difference in how long he sat their but his poops were well processed!!

Sorry Stefan i went off at a tangent, but back on subject i've noticed that Lenny did start slow down when the sun in the west facing skylights did not reach through skylights any more, so i'm sure they will react to outside influences such as weather & light,

But as we both no we can fool them (maybe not the word) into carrying on life in a correctly setup environment! But again that's not to say they won't have a rest once in a while, it's back to reading your animals reactions & understanding them!!

[nepoez]

Hi, the cage is the same as last time I showed the photos. Nothing has changed except I coated the plywood with waterproof resin(Bondo Fiberglass Resin). The basking temps(140F+) with 3 x 50Watt flood lights and humidity(80+) and everything remains unchanged.

Today he came out and basked for a while(like 20 minutes) , and then moved away from the basking spot and then he just lies there. I know he's hungry since I decided not to feed him yesterday to see if he'll get hungry enough to decide it's time to go look around for food. My tegu, the hungrier he gets the more active he is and more aggressive so I thought I'd try starving the sav for 1 day to see if he'll do the same, but nope.

Today I threw a small smelt in the cage and he dashed at it and ate it right away with vigor. Seems healthy when he sees food, still fast when chasing food. Then he roamed around the cage for like 1 minute thinking there's more food but then finds nothing and back to doing nothing. He's starting to act like those youtube savs who lay around all day doing nothing.

The basement is heated to 23C all day round, the cage is sitting on a 2 inch foam mats that insulates real well.. Although the winter is here and where I live it gets to -20C... But cage temps didn't change.

I have the cages situated in the basement where no window is exposed. I know it's working well because most tegus would hibernate at this time but my tegu hasn't been affected by the seasons at all and still hunts all day long, the sav cage is right next to the tegu's and the have the exact same setup.

Since the last conversation with murrindindi I only feed like this:
4 days of the week he eats superworms who live in the cage eating buried veggies/fruits, I have to dig them out for the sav to eat, unlike the tegu he wouldn't bother digging for himself unless they are only slightly buried.

3 days of the week I only feed 1 single mouse or 3 small smelts.


He's lost weight with this new feeding but he's still not active like he used to, e.g. roaming around from 10am-4pm. Now he won't even roam, just sits there unless I open the cage, then he'll run to me expecting food.

[murrindindi]

Hi again, thanks for the details, it would still be nice to see a few photos just to see his body condition right now (not that I`m doubting it when you say he`s lost some weight).
None of us know for sure what the precise reason/s for the behaviour might be, I think it`s possible because of the reduced feeding he`s reduced activity (much as they do in the wild during the dry season), as food may be less available at that time. It`s known in the areas they were studied they don`t brumate, and there is evidence of some activity, but to what extent we don`t yet know?
Hopefully next year Dr. Daniel Bennett will complete more studies and maybe have a few more answers in this regard (fingers and toes firmly crossed)!
Edit: Can you offer more variety in the form of inverts rather than just the superworms?

[nepoez]

Hi, I didn't take one today because he was gone in the burrow after my post, but I did take one yesterday when it made ONE circle around the cage, his ONLY circle he made all day lol.

He still looks fat when he lays down and belly spread on the floor but here's his standing picture from yesterday.

[murrindindi]

Thanks for the pic, he`s still a little on the heavy side (it will take time to lose the excess weight), this will undoubtably effect the activity levels to some extent.
Are the mice adult, and how big in comparison to his head are they, and will you be able to offer other inverts besides superwoms?
Edit: Do you have an accurate length and weight measurement?

[nepoez]

Hi I'll get to measure him when he comes back tomorrow for his morning bask. But I don't have a scale.

We can get crickets too but he isn't always interested and they die off to fast. There's horn worms but they cost too much. Super worms is the only thing I can afford at large quantity that will live long enough and eat just about any nutritious food I provide them (buried in soil like carrots veggies fruits etc)

Mice ate adult frozen thawed. About the size of his head or smaller slightly. Basically one gulp and he downs it.

[murrindindi]

Have you tried exercising him outside the enclosure if he`s acclimated enough to do that without being stressed (cordon off an area)?

[mdfmonitor]

Originally Posted by nepoez

Hi, the cage is the same as last time I showed the photos. Nothing has changed except I coated the plywood with waterproof resin(Bondo Fiberglass Resin). The basking temps(140F+) with 3 x 50Watt flood lights and humidity(80+) and everything remains unchanged.

Today he came out and basked for a while(like 20 minutes) , and then moved away from the basking spot and then he just lies there. I know he's hungry since I decided not to feed him yesterday to see if he'll get hungry enough to decide it's time to go look around for food. My tegu, the hungrier he gets the more active he is and more aggressive so I thought I'd try starving the sav for 1 day to see if he'll do the same, but nope.

Today I threw a small smelt in the cage and he dashed at it and ate it right away with vigor. Seems healthy when he sees food, still fast when chasing food. Then he roamed around the cage for like 1 minute thinking there's more food but then finds nothing and back to doing nothing. He's starting to act like those youtube savs who lay around all day doing nothing.

The basement is heated to 23C all day round, the cage is sitting on a 2 inch foam mats that insulates real well.. Although the winter is here and where I live it gets to -20C... But cage temps didn't change.

I have the cages situated in the basement where no window is exposed. I know it's working well because most tegus would hibernate at this time but my tegu hasn't been affected by the seasons at all and still hunts all day long, the sav cage is right next to the tegu's and the have the exact same setup.

Since the last conversation with murrindindi I only feed like this:
4 days of the week he eats superworms who live in the cage eating buried veggies/fruits, I have to dig them out for the sav to eat, unlike the tegu he wouldn't bother digging for himself unless they are only slightly buried.

3 days of the week I only feed 1 single mouse or 3 small smelts.


He's lost weight with this new feeding but he's still not active like he used to, e.g. roaming around from 10am-4pm. Now he won't even roam, just sits there unless I open the cage, then he'll run to me expecting food.

I'm same, my cage temps don't change, but what does change is the amount of appliances you have to use to maintain the temp, this burns off humidity.

The only way you'll ever guarantee a warm room temp cage floor is by having the cage raised off the floor, the cold works it's way up the cage floor & cools the substrate inside, the deeper the substrate the more this takes place(regardless of insulation on the floor).

These changes effect your monitor!! take my soil box why is it that it's sat on top of rooms that are lived in & heated to around 20c & the temps in the viv are around 82f across floor level, but in the bottom of the soil box it can be around 75f. When i had a nest soil box in there in the summertime & back ground temps were about 84f ground level, the substrate still had to be heated on a stat from below to maintain a 86f area.

[mdfmonitor]

Originally Posted by nepoez

Hi, I didn't take one today because he was gone in the burrow after my post, but I did take one yesterday when it made ONE circle around the cage, his ONLY circle he made all day lol.

He still looks fat when he lays down and belly spread on the floor but here's his standing picture from yesterday.

want to get rid of that belly!! up the basking spot flood 140f to 160f, feed insects/bugs/mice 4 days & 3 days off maintaining a high basking area, then every so often just throw crickets & bugs in & leave mice out.

Good basking spot flood is the key, a usable one!!

This may depend on your set-up though, if it's one level only you may have trouble achieving this, Wayne does it by having deep substrate & a good sized cage, the savs just tunnel down to their preferred temp & humidity if it gets to hot on the surface. I do it by having two levels & the basking platform been high up in the cage, this gives many different areas of temp & humidity levels to choose from.

But deep substrate & 2 levels are far better!!

hope this helps you!

[nepoez]

Originally Posted by murrindindi

Have you tried exercising him outside the enclosure if he`s acclimated enough to do that without being stressed (cordon off an area)?

I did that once when he was young but he becomes scared and runs into hiding places that are hard to get. It took me a few hours to get him out of a built in wall cupboard once, after tearing the cupboard apart.

Also my house is way too cold to do that, and our humidity in Canada is less than 20% I think.

[nepoez]

Sorry but could you please elaborate on the diet? When I'm getting from your suggestion is

-only feed 4/7 days, and the remaining days don't feed.
- raise temp to 160F
- add a second level

thx

Originally Posted by mdfmonitor

want to get rid of that belly!! up the basking spot flood 140f to 160f, feed insects/bugs/mice 4 days & 3 days off maintaining a high basking area, then every so often just throw crickets & bugs in & leave mice out.

Good basking spot flood is the key, a usable one!!

This may depend on your set-up though, if it's one level only you may have trouble achieving this, Wayne does it by having deep substrate & a good sized cage, the savs just tunnel down to their preferred temp & humidity if it gets to hot on the surface. I do it by having two levels & the basking platform been high up in the cage, this gives many different areas of temp & humidity levels to choose from.

But deep substrate & 2 levels are far better!!

hope this helps you!

[mdfmonitor]

Originally Posted by nepoez

Sorry but could you please elaborate on the diet? When I'm getting from your suggestion is

-only feed 4/7 days, and the remaining days don't feed.
- raise temp to 160F
- add a second level

thx

Poor digestion & big meals usually cause big bellies, also lack of activity adds to it.

Finding the right basking temp which for a bigger sav can be up to 160f is the key to aiding faster digestion, some vivs that are small may not allow you to get to 160f surface basking temp, so you may have to find a happy medium that suits your cage size & monitor ( as near 160f as poss). This is because the heat generated from the hals bulbs that are needed to create the hotter basking spot flood covering snout to vent may over heat a small viv.

Feeding big meals constantly keeps the belly expanded whilst the meal is digested, if you leave you monitor without food for 3 days the stomach will be empty/digested. Along with the good basking spot this will encourage them to look for more food during that time.

If you feed rodents only you reduce your monitors access to activity levels in hunting for insects along with digging them out or foraging under cork bark etc.

Feed insects 1st, when they've gone you can then feed rodents, i sometimes throw a large handful of insects in the viv early am before the monitor is awake. This allows him to spend a few hours hunting around before he evens thinks of getting his meat diet.

A number of keepers have upper levels in their vivs, at an early stage this may cause problems because shy monitors may not like to climb into the open, place cover of some kind of cover across the basking area that the monitor can feel safe behind.

upper levels give another area of access to exercise as in climb, as well as deep substrate, it also keeps your hotter temps kept in the upper level, this gives you a very hot upper level & a cooler middle level & finally the ground level.

So you have a bigger range of humidity & temps for the monitor to choose from, one level & shallow substrate & crap basking spots floods give you nothing but problems.


Substrate is best heated from below as well as above because the heat can't penetrate fully into the lower soil levels, this means sitting the viv on sleepers of some kind.

Monitors are intelligent & will gladly sit in the same place & wait for food day in day out, annoy them & change the feeding times & keep them in hunting mode, they also use that hot spot flood to warm up for hunting, if it's not hot enough they'll reduce they interest in chasing after insects & wait for you to give in & feed them an easy meal!

Hopefully there's something that will help you above!!

just fin a 12 hour shift last night!!

[Pirarucu]

Originally Posted by murrindindi

Hi, do you happen to have details on the conditions these animals are being kept under during this time?

I would have to go and find it, but all were knowledgeable and experienced keepers. The monitors all had plenty of heat and dirt, and keepers said that nothing had been changed recently.

[nepoez]

MDF Thanks for the detailed reply. I'm certain something isn't right with my setup. I'm trying to figure it out. got a hot basking spot that covers whole torso. The question now is. at 160F is that the temp of the floor? or is that the temp of the monitor's skin. Because the monitor is about 2 inches thick so if I measure the floor at 160F then when he's on the bask spot he would be over 160F. So that's a question I keep wondering about. I'd like to keep this discussion open until I get this fixed. I'm not happy with how my guy is lately I think he'll die if I can't figure this out.