Your view of the reptile hobby

[Terranaut]

Originally Posted by poison123

Its cause of Mikoh huh?

I hate that dude

No........

Very few people here can "discuss". Most choose to "argue".

[Snakefood]

Originally Posted by smy_749

Morphs are man-made after you go past the basic morphs. There is 0% chance you would get high-way ball python or a Puma or whatever else, I can't think of complicated morphs off the top of my head but you get the point. Multiple gene animals like we see in the industry have a TINY chance of occurring naturally. Yellow gene and blue gene are wild, making painting on a canvas with yellow/blue/green/(whatever else those combinations can make) in a striped or banded pattern is different.

Very true. But then again, we can say the same (speaking genetically only) about every species of dog in the world. none of them would have been created without humans keeping and breeding the "Morphs" (for lack of a better term) How else would a maltese have been bred down form wolves and dingos??

For many of us, breeding for a specific "look" IS part of the hobby. And as far as I am concerned, as long as the animals are kept and fed properly, then that's OK.

[psychocircus]

Originally Posted by Snakefood

Very true. But then again, we can say the same (speaking genetically only) about every species of dog in the world. none of them would have been created without humans keeping and breeding the "Morphs" (for lack of a better term) How else would a maltese have been bred down form wolves and dingos??

For many of us, breeding for a specific "look" IS part of the hobby. And as far as I am concerned, as long as the animals are kept and fed properly, then that's OK.

good point.
and keeping them purebred makes them much more susceptible to certain predisposed diseases/health issues.
for example flat face dogs often have respiratory issues, certain shepherds have hip dysplasia, etc.

It goes back to humans being selfish to meet their needs. Most bp morphs are no less "healthy" than the originals though.

[Snakefood]

Originally Posted by psychocircus

good point.
and keeping them purebred makes them much more susceptible to certain predisposed diseases/health issues.
for example flat face dogs often have respiratory issues, certain shepherds have hip dysplasia, etc.

It goes back to humans being selfish to meet their needs. Most bp morphs are no less "healthy" than the originals though.

Yes, that is very true, as a former vet tech, I could go on forever about breed specific illness and weaknesses. Of course humans have been breeding dogs to suit their purposes for thousands of years, so it is rarely thought of as breeding for certain characteristics anymore, it is just thought of as breeding your chosen breed never considering what the "normal" version was! (of course the Wolf, Coyote, Dingo and African Wild Dog)

And 1000 years from now, the same ideology will probably apply to the breeding of morphs in the reptile world.

I agree, humans are selfish by nature, but that is how we got to the top of the food chain(so to speak), it wasn't accomplished by thinking of others!!

[limey]

Originally Posted by Terranaut

No........

Very few people here can "discuss". Most choose to "argue".

It would seem you are right.

I was just penalized like a little boy for using the term "man-made" to describe most of the obscure morphs that exist in the snake hobby.

Well.. *sighs* I fail to believe that "lavender albino retics", for example, are all over the place in the jungles of Southeast Asia. Granted some genetic anomalies exist in nature, of course they do. However, most "morphs" we see today, most (not all) especially in the ball python arena were created by selective breeding, not by catching them in that state in the wild.

Selective breeding is done by humans. Human intervention is done by men. If something is done by men, it is man-made. Perhaps the term "man-made" is a little misleading. (However it could be used as a very simple, generic explanation - a term I might use to explain a bright yellow, black and orange ball python, for example, to an 8 year old kid that is under the impression that these snakes occur in that colour in the wild after he saw one at a show, or at the previous zoo I was head keeper of).

It is my opinion (and get this: opinion is what this thread is all about lol) that wild morphs are as "natural" as it gets. And therefore I like them best. Period. My opinion. No need to be offended, kiddies

But of course, it would seem that there are always those that wish to argue. Nitpick the little things and try to create an argument out of them.

It's hard to take the people on this forum too seriously though

Can't believe I just wasted 10 minutes of my life explaining myself to somebody I don't even know, or doesn't know me... lol...

Okay, back to more important things... bye for now

[Mikoh4792]

Originally Posted by Snakefood

Yes, that is very true, as a former vet tech, I could go on forever about breed specific illness and weaknesses. Of course humans have been breeding dogs to suit their purposes for thousands of years, so it is rarely thought of as breeding for certain characteristics anymore, it is just thought of as breeding your chosen breed never considering what the "normal" version was! (of course the Wolf, Coyote, Dingo and African Wild Dog)

And 1000 years from now, the same ideology will probably apply to the breeding of morphs in the reptile world.

I agree, humans are selfish by nature, but that is how we got to the top of the food chain(so to speak), it wasn't accomplished by thinking of others!!

We have domesticated dogs descended from coyotes? What are the breeds?

I always thought they were all from wolves(or most of them at least)

[Snakefood]

Well actually, all domestic dogs have the genes of every canine that originally existed before human intervention.

They say that all dogs share 99.9% of their genetic makeup with wolves, because in truth 35-50 thousand (obviously averaging it out here) years ago, it WAS only the wolf in existence, then land masses parted and came together, the wolves prey migrated to new lands and environments, which the wolves followed and then natural evolution occurred. Therefore coyotes, dingoes and African wild dogs came into existence because those wolves evolved to survive their new environments.

So, when humans intervened and took "this" canine and "that" canine and bred them, then selected the best looking ones or the best suited ones for the humans needs, that was the start of humans creating "breeds" of dogs. Yes, depending on where geographically you are, you will find the genes to the "wild" type dog within the genetic makeup of todays canine companions.

And it is still done today, here in BC we have many wolf and coyote hybrids, usually crossed with shepherds or husky's, but I have seen others too.

So to answer your actual question.........all breeds have at least a very minute percentage of Coyote, Dingo, or African wild dog in them. You just don't hear about it because the wolf was THE FIRST original wild canine!!

[Mikoh4792]

Learning new things everyday! Hard to imagine how a little Chihuahua came from all that day in such a short time.

[LiL Zap]

One thing that really angers me is selling a reptile to someone who cannot adequately care for it. For example, at a reptile show back in December I witnessed a chameleon breeder sell a specimen to a family with a small boy. Immediately, the small boy began playing with the chameleon like a small toy. My coworker who went to the show with me informed the family that chameleons stress easily and aren't really animals to handle. The family had no idea of this and actually had never owned a reptile before. This really boils my blood because a chameleon (in my opinion) is an advanced animal to own and you can't just hand them off to someone who has the money for one. I hope that chameleon is alive today but I'm also a realistic person and most likely...it has passed away due to ignorance of some people.

I just wish vendors, pet shops and whoever sells reptiles would just educate the potential buyer thoroughly and if that person doesn't get the grasp of caring for that particular reptile...they should refuse the sale. I'm going to jump off a cliff if I see one more damn chameleon sold to a 10 year old kid or pretty much ANY advance or intermediate level reptile sold to someone who just cannot care for it properly.

Great thread by the way!

[Mikoh4792]

Originally Posted by LiL Zap

One thing that really angers me is selling a reptile to someone who cannot adequately care for it. For example, at a reptile show back in December I witnessed a chameleon breeder sell a specimen to a family with a small boy. Immediately, the small boy began playing with the chameleon like a small toy. My coworker who went to the show with me informed the family that chameleons stress easily and aren't really animals to handle. The family had no idea of this and actually had never owned a reptile before. This really boils my blood because a chameleon (in my opinion) is an advanced animal to own and you can't just hand them off to someone who has the money for one. I hope that chameleon is alive today but I'm also a realistic person and most likely...it has passed away due to ignorance of some people.

I just wish vendors, pet shops and whoever sells reptiles would just educate the potential buyer thoroughly and if that person doesn't get the grasp of caring for that particular reptile...they should refuse the sale. I'm going to jump off a cliff if I see one more damn chameleon sold to a 10 year old kid or pretty much ANY advance or intermediate level reptile sold to someone who just cannot care for it properly.

Great thread by the way!

Happens all too often with animals that have special requirements. Like chameleons in your example, monitors...etc.

[LiL Zap]

Originally Posted by Mikoh4792

Happens all too often with animals that have special requirements. Like chameleons in your example, monitors...etc.

I could go on and on about this issue. It's horrible.

[Sublimeballs]

Originally Posted by Mikoh4792

Happens all too often with animals that have special requirements. Like chameleons in your example, monitors...etc.

Hots are ones that amaze me aswell. I got offered 2 western diamondbacks for $5(obviously didnt get them). But anyone over 18 can get 2 wdbs for $5 that's crazy.

[Mikoh4792]

Originally Posted by Sublimeballs

Hots are ones that amaze me aswell. I got offered 2 western diamondbacks for $5(obviously didnt get them). But anyone over 18 can get 2 wdbs for $5 that's crazy.

5$?! Were they wild caught or something?

[sharthun]

Originally Posted by Sublimeballs

Hots are ones that amaze me aswell. I got offered 2 western diamondbacks for $5(obviously didnt get them). But anyone over 18 can get 2 wdbs for $5 that's crazy.

Wow, now that's a recipe for disaster!

[psychocircus]

Originally Posted by LiL Zap

One thing that really angers me is selling a reptile to someone who cannot adequately care for it. For example, at a reptile show back in December I witnessed a chameleon breeder sell a specimen to a family with a small boy. Immediately, the small boy began playing with the chameleon like a small toy. My coworker who went to the show with me informed the family that chameleons stress easily and aren't really animals to handle. The family had no idea of this and actually had never owned a reptile before. This really boils my blood because a chameleon (in my opinion) is an advanced animal to own and you can't just hand them off to someone who has the money for one. I hope that chameleon is alive today but I'm also a realistic person and most likely...it has passed away due to ignorance of some people.

I just wish vendors, pet shops and whoever sells reptiles would just educate the potential buyer thoroughly and if that person doesn't get the grasp of caring for that particular reptile...they should refuse the sale. I'm going to jump off a cliff if I see one more damn chameleon sold to a 10 year old kid or pretty much ANY advance or intermediate level reptile sold to someone who just cannot care for it properly.

Great thread by the way!

absolutely. just goes back to it being all about the money. On the flip side, every potential pet owner should do extensive research on an animal (preferably before purchasing) even if you were informed by a pet store/breeder on basic care. I still agree with you though.

Originally Posted by Mikoh4792

Happens all too often with animals that have special requirements. Like chameleons in your example, monitors...etc.

Makes my heart wrench every time I see savannah/nile monitors in a pet shop with only a uvb light, no heat, and a dry enclosure with crickets climbing all over their still bodies.

Originally Posted by Sublimeballs

Hots are ones that amaze me aswell. I got offered 2 western diamondbacks for $5(obviously didnt get them). But anyone over 18 can get 2 wdbs for $5 that's crazy.

That's crazy. but at least people know the danger of these animals. Chances are they'd know what they're getting themselves into (doesn't mean they're prepared, I know) but MOST people have enough common sense to decline such an offer.