What happens if you cross a carpet to a woma? (dialup)

[Gregg M]

I would not step on them...... I would humanely kill them and use them as feeders...... Trust me, they would not go to waste..... I stated from the begining that they should not suffer but should be used as feeders.....

Also, I never in one post insulted anyone or called anyone a name directly or indirectly......
But a few people here did call me names and made fun of my spelling like a school child, several times......

On to the reptile/hot legislation...... Hots aleady are illegal in my state...... The reason why I am not upset about it, is because I did what was needed to stay a legal keeper in my state....... The laws passed did not affect me...... I did not complain about anything...... I did what I needed to do, to keep, breed, and transport my animals in my state legaly......

I love how you keep talking like you have a clue, when you clearly do not...... You have made many assumptions and sometimes slanderous remarks...... You need to think hard before you open your trap because I dont think you want to make yourself look any more foolish than you do already...... I mean, how many times do you need to be corrected about things????

I wish all states made a permit system for every reptile..... It would keep alot of crap out of the hobby...... It would keep alot of people like you out of the hobby......

Listen, if someone can give me a legit reason to produce hybrid snakes other than "they look nicer" or "they can make me alot of money" I would respect the other view point...... Unfortunately, I have heard all the reasons and not one is legit or shows any benifit to the animals them selves.....

Again someone give me something here besides paragraphs explaining your reasons for not liking me or seamus's veiw on hybrids, or how I am a pompus a$$, or why I should be using spell check, so on and so on.......

[ravensgait]

LMAO Gregg ya best go back and read your own post! But then maybe you feel when you call people stupid or other names as you put it, you don't think it is mean or insulting? Sure seems to bother you when others reply to you as you talk to them.

The only reason anyone needs is that they WANT TO! Plain and simple if the animals belong to them they can breed them how ever they want, they don't need any other reason. Now when you become ruler of the world you can make everyone do what you want but until then worry about your own house and stop trying to tell people what they can and can't do(wait till you rule the world then you can) LMAO

You keep saying how dangerous this hybrid is(or any hybrid) yet this from a guy who keeps hots, animals that are potentially dangerous, to you or anyone else. Have I or anyone else here said anything about the real danger your animals could possibly be? Nope I think you should be able to keep and breed what you want.

Slanderous remarks? might want to look up the definition of the word LOL like so many things here you don't have a clue what your talking about.

Ah now you don't want me to have snakes I'm hurt LOL again when you rule the world you can decide that and have me fed to one of your snakes if you want LOLOL.

All we have from you Gregg and Seamenus is that you just hate the little animals and you hate anyone who is involved with or may become involved with hybrids. I think that pretty well sums up your position on Hybrids and the people who disagree with you at least that is the position you have laid out here.
Randy

[Gregg M]

Originally posted by ravensgait
LMAO Gregg ya best go back and read your own post! But then maybe you feel when you call people stupid or other names as you put it, you don't think it is mean or insulting? Sure seems to bother you when others reply to you as you talk to them.

Quote it!!! Go ahead give the quote where I spacifcly pointed out another member of this site and called them ANY name.....

You cant because I never did.....

Also, venomous snake are dangerous in the hands of, lets say, someone with your experiance and husbandry views......

But in the hands of an expeianced, responsible keeper who is "checked up on" by the state a couple of times a year to make sure all safty requirments and protocal are being followed, they are no more dangerous than a large constrictor......

Plus they are in locked cages in a locked, escape proof room (also approved by a F&W officer) that only I have the keys to...... The only person at any type of risk is myself..... I have accepted the risks in keeping these animals......

I am not polluting captive stock with tainted bloodlines and physical deformities and abnormalities..... No one will ever get questionable stock from me......

When you buy a hot, you know it is a hot.....

Now when people buy a Woma, there is a chance there will be carpet blood in it because of this greed driven experiment..... I know I would be pissed about that and so would MANY others......

Again, stop talking about things you do not know about......

It is funny how all of your comparisons have been proven to be meaningless and without simple thought funtion.....

You are comparing apples to hotdogs......

It is almost sad to see you grasping for straws like this...... You are even saying I said and did things I never said or did.....LOL Oh and putting words in my mouth and making some pretty crazy ASSumptions.....

Again, you are the inexperianced and uneducated....... It is a shame someone new to all this might actually think you know what you are talking about.......
But you can bet I will be there to challenge your BS and put a real scientific perspective on things......

My thoughts and views are based on proven science, not greed or the desire to own something "cool"........

[Boakid]

"The only reason anyone needs is that they WANT TO! Plain and simple if the animals belong to them they can breed them how ever they want, they don't need any other reason."

thats like saying if its your dog beat it

[ravensgait]

Kid now where did you get that idea from? would you want me telling you what you should breed ??? I sure don't want you Gregg or anyone telling me or anyone else what I can keep and how I should breed it. Seems Gregg sure wants to tell people what they can and can't do. Also wants to regulate the keeping of reptiles! Boakid do you have 20 years experience in keeping them and a degree in anything related to reptiles? if not you might be out of luck if Gregg had his way.

Randy

[Gregg M]

You know what is sad???? A 14 year old kid has more of a grip on what is right and wrong than you do......LOL

I never told anyone what they can or cant do..... I simply gave my views on hybrids and why they should not be created...... Yes, real, proven reasons with backing.....

You have given nothing at all..... No substance, no science, no legit reasons why they are a benefit...... All you gave were very poor comparisons, name calling, assumptions about Seamus and I, and the so called "importance of spell check"...... LOL

Pathetic, pathetic, PATHETIC.....

Even young kids see how pathetic you are.....

Boakid would not be out of luck because he has a functional brain in his head and he can see far past your BS......
He is Ok in my book.... I think his dog analogy was more thought out and better than anything you have posted in 12 pages.....

And like I said before, the only people that would be against the regulation of keeping reptiles (regulation does not mean all out banning them), are the one who would obviously not be able to meet the permit standards...... I have a funny feeling you would be one of the people who would not meet the standards.....

I am not for banning them..... I am for strict permit systems to ensure people like you would have a hard time keeping them legaly..... You know, the irresponsible keepers and greedy breeders.....

[ravensgait]

Gregg I posted some of it above IE the quotes from you! now I guess you have trouble reading your own writing here's just one where you refer to those who disagree with your morals as stupid----I think alot of people are just too stupid ----- your comments to others went down hill from there.. Now there are many other examples, you might want to take a look at your post you have been nothing but rude and obnoxious since you started posting in this thread and then you get upset because myself and others reply to you in the same manner you speak to everyone else. there's that H word again.

Gregg said--It is a shame someone new to all this might actually think you know what you are talking about.......
But you can bet I will be there to challenge your BS and put a real scientific perspective on things......
I like how you use something I said before but then I was pointing out that I reply to your garbage so hopefully some will realize your comments on this subject are what they are BS. As for Perspective the only perspective you've show is a prejudice and rather hateful one.

You keep talking about your science and said a couple of days ago you had something to blow us me out of the water. So where is this almighty proof? geez Greg you could post whatever and I or someone else could post something countering it.

The real point of all this is that YOU want everyone to think and do as YOU want them to. Sorry but until your become Emperor of the world it ain't gonna happen. You can keep wearing out your finger typing post here go on type another and another after that , keep on trying to force everyone to agree with you ! it ain't gonna happen.

It sure seems to bother you that I treat you with the same disrespect and disdain that you have shown me and others in this thread. Why does it bother you so Gregg?? If you treated others with respect they more than likely would treat you with more respect Well until you start talking about killing their animals calling them stupid and trying to force them to agree with you.
Randy

[atropabelladona]

There are these things called ethics...

Plus imo genetic manipulation is a much dangerous and awsome power than owning hot snakes. Yes, venomous snakes are deadly. But when you get a hot, you should know that it can kill you. Tinkering around with genetics outside of the laws of nature can ripple like a stone in a stream, and won't be seen til its too late. There are consequences to every action, good or bad or more likely in between. There is no simple answer to this question, "because I own them I'll do what I want" or "hybrids are dirty nasty animals that are suffering" because its a complex question. But I'll be quiet now so yall can get back to insulting each other.

[ravensgait]

Ethics well there is that but who is really to say weather it is ethical to breed a Woma to a Carpet? You? Gregg? others seem to think it is alright so who is to say?

Hybrids have enriched our lives we see them everywhere though most don't realize it. Sure there have been times when things have gone wrong. The world is full of hybrid plants and animals some did it on their own others had help from man.

I mentioned the research being done on a breed of lizard a few times in this thread that might hold great hope for those that suffer from Alzheimer's. Now the odds of a woma/carpet cross having any use like that is very very small but ya never know. Say tomorrow someone discovered a cure for cancer in a cross between say a Ball and a Burm that someone had breed for the heck of it. Yeah I know the odds are real slim but I wonder how many hybrids that proved useful were made just for the heck of it and later it was found that they had a rel use. I mention grass hybrids for lawns useful but not necessary we see many hybrids like that , they are nice to have but we don't really need them.

The point I'm trying to make to you atropabelladona is that unless it proves harmful to its self and or others why shouldn't it be done? If this cross proves to have health or any other problems then sure why do it again, if they grow up healthy then why not make more of them if people want them? Most the things we have in our lives we have just because we want them. I don't know of anyone who needs to have snakes, we have them because we want them. So if I or others want to have a hybrid Woma/Carpet and they are healthy then why shouldn't we have one. ( I don't own any hybrids but think if people want to own one no body has the right to tell them they can't)

One thing I'd like to mention as Gregg and others keep mentioning that the gene pool of these animals will be forever polluted by these crosses. Now in higher animals say dogs rabbits horses whatever. If your cross an animal then breed the offspring back to one side or the other for 5 to 7 generations you once again have a pure whatever. Yes there has been research and DNA work done on this . I wouldn't think reptiles would be any different.
Randy

[M_surinamensis]

1) Satire is beyond you Raven. Good job.

2) Hybrids do NOT happen in nature. By definition they do not happen. Sometimes our taxonomic definitions are incorrect and a study into the natural history of the animals in question will cause two populations which were thought to be seperate to be made conspecific... For example brooks and florida kings were long thought to be completely unique populations- field work showed a huge number of crosses occuring naturally, the definitions were revised. That's likely going to be the case with gaboons and rhinos as well... As a population adapts to different evolutionary pressures it can begin to seperate- into subspecification and theoretically into multiple isolated breeding populations; one species becoming two. It does NOT work backwards though. "Hybrids" do not happen in nature since natural interbreeding indicates that populations of animals are defined as a single species.

Real bio 101 stuff here. Seriously.

3) The last line about five-seven generations cancelling out hybridization is pure and utter idiotic crap. I don't know where the hell you pulled it from but it is wrong... wrong wrong wrong wrong.

... wrong.

4) Kara... You've read the thread. Answer the question. How... many... of... those... abominations... are... still... alive? It may be TRR time for this one though.

[Gregg M]

Ravensgait, you have proven yourself, without a doubt, to be as useful as air breaks on a turtle.....

[psilocybe]

Just out of curiousity, how many hybrid supporters are in favor of a human/ape hybrid? It would be a "scientific discovery" as one putz so eloquently stated the woma/IJCP hybrid to be.

If any of you were to pick up a legitimate newspaper or magazine, and see in the headlines: "Scientists create first human/chimpanzee hybrid", I can practically guarentee that most if not all of you would be mouthing the words "That's not natural..." Exactly. Non-naturally occuring hybrids are NOT natural, and should not be propogated. Unless of course you believe in human hybrids, then you are at least being consistant in your beliefs and I would have to respect your opinion. But unless you are willing to donate your daughter/sister/mother/wife/ to science and have her procreate with a big male silverback in the name of science, you are a hypocrite. Or for you female hybrid supporters out there, how would you feel if you found your husband screwing a chimp when you came home one day? Would the excuse "I'm doing it in the name of science" sit well with ya? Would you play surrogate parent to the little hybrid when it was born? This is of course making the assumption that a living hybrid could be produced. In all likeliness, a human/ape hybrid would be pretty difficult to produce the old fashioned way, but I wouldn't doubt it could happen in a lab, at least in the near future. Anyone have any objections?

Before any half-wit jumps on me, my post is not so subtely laced in sarcasm. However, the underlying point is that if you are going to argue that non-naturally ocurring hybrids are okay, you should have no ethical concerns when it comes to the hybridization, or other genetic experiments (such as cloning) with humans. We are after all, just another species of animal, no better, no worse than any other living creature on this planet. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

[psilocybe]

Oh, and if anyone is gonna use religion as a reason why human/ape hybrids shouldn't be created, I would think that God would have objections to us mere mortals playing God and creating hybrids that would NEVER exist in nature.

*NOTE: I don't believe in god myself, but if you were gonna use that excuse, this is my rebuttal.

[gonesnakee]

LMAO it just gets more entertaining. Surprised its not being moderated seeings how you Mrs. Morals folks want to keep discussing religon. Seeings how I mentioned it ever hear of Evolution? Heck breeding with apes could be considered totally natural to some folks after all we desended from them right? LOL.
M. suri if you really think Kara is going to reply I think you are mistaken as she probably hasn't viewed anything here past the first page or so & even if she has I doubt she would bother giving it a response. I too though am interested as you MAY be right in reguards to this particular "crossing" as if they have all since perished they probably weren't meant to be. IF that is & only this particular hybrid. ; ) No "blanket rules" or black & white, but a whole lot of grey area. Not every hybrid is a success story, but many are a complete success.
Oh & Flame on Oh Great Judgemental One! Bugeyed hybrids??? LMAO I'd like to see them. Maybe if you started with an inbred ratsnake. No Hybrid Vigor??? Maybe you should talk to someone with a degree in genetics. Just goes to show how very little you know (or choose too) about hybrids or rather how you can only accept the facts that suport your opinions. Its funny how most of the studies quoted took place before most types of snake Hybrids even existed (& didn't even involve snakes ), but are considered conclusive evidence to back your "claims". LMAO Mark
P.S. had to say Hi again as I hadn't been around since like pg 5 & more posts were requested. A few good posts since then on both sides, but mostly just the same old same old. Sad that folks can't discuss things as adults & choose to act like children when they don't get their way. IMHO all still looks like just a matter of opinion.

[M_surinamensis]

M. suri if you really think Kara is going to reply I think you are mistaken as she probably hasn't viewed anything here past the first page or so & even if she has I doubt she would bother giving it a response.

The "Users Online" section lets you know who's on reading what. She's been reading.

Apparantly she doesn't have enough spare time to hit a single key on the number pad and submit it though. Same way she was way too busy to actually explain where those venomoids came from and why NERD owns them. Or who really originated a few of those ball morphs thay claim to have been the first to produce (coughcoughBULLSH!Tcoughcough). She's way too busy to clear up a lot of things that put NERD in a questionable light.