The yellow rat snake that may enjoy some human contact. - Page 11

Amadeus · 06-23-13, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jarich

Wow, I suppose I shouldnt be surprised by this thread. I would like to congratulate Cory on keeping his cool and demeanor throughout a whole lot of nonsense in response to a valid post.

Once again, as is usually the case in this debate, the people who posted actual scientific evidence with credible references were ignored by everyone else. (Well done Cory and Zoonanny for actually showing some of your research) Sorry, but stating that reptiles dont have a limbic system and therefore cant have higher functioning is just as credible as saying my snake likes a good rub. They both have little to no research behind them and are merely subjective observations from an already formed opinion. You guys keep using those words "scientific evidence" like you knew what it meant, yet all your posts prove otherwise. Its a little disingenuous to say that one side has no evidence and is therefore stupid, yet also provide no evidence. It does however show that youve done no credible research either...

You shouldn't even read a thread like this unless you like angering yourself

Note- Snakes don't have higher brain function.

jarich · 06-23-13, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amadeus

You shouldn't even read a thread like this unless you like angering yourself

Note- Snakes don't have higher brain function.

Oh nothing worth angry at here. A little sad maybe...

MDT · 06-23-13, 02:13 PM

O.M.G........
(yes, I'm back in against my better judgement).......

Seriously?!?!?!?!? Jarich, dude I really respect you, however, if Cory is gonna put forth the theory that a snake likes a little tickle every now and then, he should be able to back that theory up with data. Yes, I said that the limbic system was lacking in reptiles. I figured that as a group of reptile enthusiasts, we'd all kinda know that. If not, I figured that with minimal digging we could all access that readily available information about reptilian brain development in comparison to mammalian brain development. Again, my data is about 100 yrs of published neuroanatomy. From my personal dissection and study of about 6 brains from the phyllum Chordata to my post graduate training. I'm stating fact that a reptiles brain is peanuts compared to ours. Can I say definitively that a reptile can absolutely, unequivocally not dig a really good massage? No, but I can say that evidence points away from that. And further, the one postulating something different is the one who should be able to sway the skeptics. Even ZooNanny's link to the paper confirmed this:

As indicated in Table 1, many of the pallial differences between reptiles and birds are more those of degree in the development of areas than ones involving major shifts of connections. The Wulst and dorsal ventricular ridge regions of birds are substantially expanded in comparison with the corresponding regions in reptiles. This difference is reflected in the jump in brain-body ratios between reptiles and birds (Jerison, 2001; Nieuwenhuys et al., 1998). The brain-body ratios of amphibians are even less than those in reptiles (Jerison, 2001), and as discussed above, their forebrains lack the thalamopallial circuitry of amniote brains. Although consciousness, even of a higher level, cannot be ruled out in reptiles or amphibians, if such thalamopallial circuitry is crucial to its generation in birds and mammals, it is possible that reptiles have consciousness to a substantially lesser degree, and amphibians may or may not have alternate neural systems to support it.

This is ONE paper on the subject...and trust me, there are 1000's more out there on this same subject. I can't say conclusively that my JCP doesn't like it when I rub her tummy, but I can darn sure make an educated guess that until the data supports that supposition, I shouldn't going around saying that she does and not expect to be challenged on it...

**lady_bug87** · 06-23-13, 02:20 PM

I just can't believe this is still going.... clearly we have too much time on our hands

MDT · 06-23-13, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lady_bug87

I just can't believe this is still going.... clearly we have too much time on our hands

It's a lazy Sunday.....

**lady_bug87** · 06-23-13, 02:59 PM

Come on over. I have lots for you to do aside from arguing the same asinine points over and over again

MDT · 06-23-13, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lady_bug87

Come on over. I have lots for you to do aside from arguing the same asinine points over and over again

Ok, deal...just no plumbing or electrical stuff

jarich · 06-23-13, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MDT

O.M.G........
(yes, I'm back in against my better judgement).......

Seriously?!?!?!?!? Jarich, dude I really respect you, however, if Cory is gonna put forth the theory that a snake likes a little tickle every now and then, he should be able to back that theory up with data. Yes, I said that the limbic system was lacking in reptiles. I figured that as a group of reptile enthusiasts, we'd all kinda know that. If not, I figured that with minimal digging we could all access that readily available information about reptilian brain development in comparison to mammalian brain development. Again, my data is about 100 yrs of published neuroanatomy. From my personal dissection and study of about 6 brains from the phyllum Chordata to my post graduate training. I'm stating fact that a reptiles brain is peanuts compared to ours. Can I say definitively that a reptile can absolutely, unequivocally not dig a really good massage? No, but I can say that evidence points away from that. And further, the one postulating something different is the one who should be able to sway the skeptics. Even ZooNanny's link to the paper confirmed this:

As indicated in Table 1, many of the pallial differences between reptiles and birds are more those of degree in the development of areas than ones involving major shifts of connections. The Wulst and dorsal ventricular ridge regions of birds are substantially expanded in comparison with the corresponding regions in reptiles. This difference is reflected in the jump in brain-body ratios between reptiles and birds (Jerison, 2001; Nieuwenhuys et al., 1998). The brain-body ratios of amphibians are even less than those in reptiles (Jerison, 2001), and as discussed above, their forebrains lack the thalamopallial circuitry of amniote brains. Although consciousness, even of a higher level, cannot be ruled out in reptiles or amphibians, if such thalamopallial circuitry is crucial to its generation in birds and mammals, it is possible that reptiles have consciousness to a substantially lesser degree, and amphibians may or may not have alternate neural systems to support it.

This is ONE paper on the subject...and trust me, there are 1000's more out there on this same subject. I can't say conclusively that my JCP doesn't like it when I rub her tummy, but I can darn sure make an educated guess that until the data supports that supposition, I shouldn't going around saying that she does and not expect to be challenged on it...

MDT, I too normally respect your posts, so lets not get too excited here. No one said that reptile's brains are as developed as humans, I dont think that was ever the topic of discussion. Nor did Cory say that they had some sort of higher consciousness. What he said, and simply asked about, was that he made an observation that it appeared like his snake found it pleasurable to be touched. If you think that there is 100 years of research stating this is not the case, you need to go back and check closer. While we are aware of the form of the brain in reptiles, we are not altogether aware of the function. Comparative anatomy only goes so far. I too dissected many in my studies, and I actually studied comparative neuroanatomy specifically. What I know about the brain is that it is an incredibly plastic organ, and function has been found not to be a result of form many times.

The point is, the greatest minds in this field, who have studied this for 30-40 years straight, do not have a consensus on the degree and function of the various parts of the brain in reptiles. That article Zoonanny posted was the culmination of the fact that what was always supposed about the nature and function of lower vertebrate brains is not so easily explained. They are using various parts of their brains for functions other than what we thought those were strictly used for. This is very important information. Whats more, no one on this thread has done more than a days research on the topic, if theyre lucky. As a matter of fact, Id go as far as to say everyone altogether on this thread hasnt done more than a days research in total. So for anyone on this forum to make fun of others and call them stupid and unscientific for their opinions seems both hypocritical and a little ridiculous. Cory stated an observation, and asked for opinions. So far he and Zoonanny were the only ones to come up with any research to try to back up their points. Saying there are 1000s of articles and 100s of years of research pointing to something is another way of saying you probably havent done any yourself. So I ask you go take a look. See if, after doing some actual research on this exact subject, you really think its such a simple, one-sided argument. I have no doubt you will find out fairly quickly that it is still very much up for debate.

While I think anthropomorphizing is a mistake, I also think that the idea that they absolutely cant share any traits is just as silly. There is a whole field of research in zoology called enrichment that deals specifically with stimulating the minds of animals in captive situations. There is very good reason for that, and it extends to reptiles.

MDT · 06-23-13, 03:50 PM

Saying there are 1000s of articles and 100s of years of research pointing to something is another way of saying you probably havent done any yourself. Am I published in this field? No. Have I had to do research and study in comparative anatomy, developmental anatomy and embryology and the like? Yes. So I ask you go take a look. See if, after doing some actual research on this exact subject, you really think its such a simple, one-sided argument. I have no doubt you will find out fairly quickly that it is still very much up for debate. Not entirely one sided, but pretty weighted (at least at this point)

While I think anthropomorphizing is a mistake, I also think that the idea that they absolutely cant share any traits is just as silly. There is a whole field of research in zoology called enrichment that deals specifically with stimulating the minds of animals in captive situations. There is very good reason for that, and it extends to reptiles.

I still have love for you brother

jarich · 06-23-13, 04:41 PM

You too man

My posts were not so much directed at you. I know you have background knowledge and an understanding of neuranatomical form. It was more for those who felt justified in calling others stupid for having an opposing opinion when they have just as cursory an understanding of what they are discussing.

Its a shame as this topic is really very interesting when you read the research from those who know what they're talking about. The degree of difference in function between species, in what were supposed to be static forms, is incredible. Less so in non-avian reptiles, but still really impressive and interesting. Unfortunately, the topic is never as interesting on forums as its usually just a bunch of preconceived notions on both sides that reverts to name calling in the end. Oh well, maybe one day.