Your view of the reptile hobby

[poison123]

Originally Posted by Terranaut

This is why I avoided this thread altogether.

Its cause of Mikoh huh?

I hate that dude

[Mikoh4792]

Originally Posted by poison123

Its cause of Mikoh huh?

I hate that dude

Yeah me too. That guy keeps expressing his views in a thread about epressing views. When is he going to shut up and do something about it?

[AussieSnake]

Really glad we don't have Ball pythons in Australia (legal ones at least) if this is the uproar they cause. Phew Its good to read a thread like this though as I think the hobby in Australia is probably at a stage that North America was 10-15 years ago, we are starting to see the emergence of larger breeders and new morphs, we are still restricted by government laws in different states though around what can be sold and how. I hope the hobby stays a hobby, that's my view.

[Mikoh4792]

Originally Posted by AussieSnake

Really glad we don't have Ball pythons in Australia (legal ones at least) if this is the uproar they cause. Phew Its good to read a thread like this though as I think the hobby in Australia is probably at a stage that North America was 10-15 years ago, we are starting to see the emergence of larger breeders and new morphs, we are still restricted by government laws in different states though around what can be sold and how. I hope the hobby stays a hobby, that's my view.

to tell you the truth it's not really an uproar. I think most people are fine with it, some people like me are a bit annoyed by it but it's not a big deal.

The only uproar is when I state my opinions and people tell me I have no right to unless I take action. Like really? Okay there are too many ball pythons at expos, how about I just won't go to them. I'm not going to try to be a hero and change the scene. Let the people do what they want. If everyone wants to breed ball pythons and have nothing but ball pythons at expos....let it be. I'll just say I don't like it and stand back.

Same with drugs. If people want to take heroin let em. I don't like it. I'll say I don't like it. But I'm not going to try and be a hero and because a heroin addict tells me " If you don't like people taking heroin, do something about it!"

The ball python morph craze is much more trivial than that.

With a thread started originally for sharing views, it became into a multi-page long defense of myself for wanting to share our views without calling eachother out on complaining, being lazy...etc.

[Terranaut]

Originally Posted by poison123

Its cause of Mikoh huh?

I hate that dude

No........

Very few people here can "discuss". Most choose to "argue".

[limey]

Originally Posted by Terranaut

No........

Very few people here can "discuss". Most choose to "argue".

It would seem you are right.

I was just penalized like a little boy for using the term "man-made" to describe most of the obscure morphs that exist in the snake hobby.

Well.. *sighs* I fail to believe that "lavender albino retics", for example, are all over the place in the jungles of Southeast Asia. Granted some genetic anomalies exist in nature, of course they do. However, most "morphs" we see today, most (not all) especially in the ball python arena were created by selective breeding, not by catching them in that state in the wild.

Selective breeding is done by humans. Human intervention is done by men. If something is done by men, it is man-made. Perhaps the term "man-made" is a little misleading. (However it could be used as a very simple, generic explanation - a term I might use to explain a bright yellow, black and orange ball python, for example, to an 8 year old kid that is under the impression that these snakes occur in that colour in the wild after he saw one at a show, or at the previous zoo I was head keeper of).

It is my opinion (and get this: opinion is what this thread is all about lol) that wild morphs are as "natural" as it gets. And therefore I like them best. Period. My opinion. No need to be offended, kiddies

But of course, it would seem that there are always those that wish to argue. Nitpick the little things and try to create an argument out of them.

It's hard to take the people on this forum too seriously though

Can't believe I just wasted 10 minutes of my life explaining myself to somebody I don't even know, or doesn't know me... lol...

Okay, back to more important things... bye for now

[Snakefood]

WOW, what a read!! I have actually read every post here and here is my personal opinion.

I LOVE MORPHS!!!! I love Cornsnake morphs, I love Ball Python morphs, I love Boa morphs, I think they are beautiful and yes, I do breed them. I breed for the ones I find beautiful, different and amazing. Now if someone else likes them and buys them from me, great!! I don't care what is the "most popular" I breed what catches my eye!!

I personally think that this hobby would be incredibly boring if there were only the "normal" in any species.

I feel for those of you who's local expo's are over-run by one species, thankfully our local expo is extremely varied, We get to see many different species of snakes, Gecko's, lizards, frogs and Arachnids. I guess we're just lucky that way.

As for morph's being "man-made" that is ridiculous!! The originals of these "morphs" are genetic anomalies in the wild, captured and bred into the captive population. The most recent that I am aware of is the "Palmetto Corn", a fully grown, mature male was captured IN THE WILD, and bought by a breeder who then bred that male into his captive collection. (again, my opinion, these Palmettos are GORGEOUS!!)

To answer the original question of "My view of the reptile Hobby": My view is that individual people all have individual ideas of what they love about their chosen species, and that is what makes us such a varied population. And I love it!!

"What would I change??" well I can't remember who actually said it (it was many pages ago now!) but I would change the way pet stores sell their reptiles. In my personal experience, the owners of these stores (I am sure there are exceptions) don't care about giving proper information on care and husbandry, they care about their profit margins. To give an example: a local pet store sells snakes and other reptiles, I was looking for a part-time job that I would enjoy and because of my experience with most of the species of snakes he sold, he hired me on. However, whenever I gave a customer good advice on husbandry, I would get pulled aside and told to say something different. "Why", you ask?? Because the proper advice that I gave on the care of these beautiful creatures did not always make him the most $$. I was told to "stop thinking like a breeder and to start thinking like a sales person" I don't think I need to add that I no longer work there, I have gone back into the office where I make $$, and I keep my collection of snakes, I breed them, aiming for the morphs I WANT to create, and they are properly cared for.

IMO...... MISINFORMATION (whether purposeful or not) is what needs to be changed and bettered in this hobby, not whether or not X and Y person(s) are breeding morphs rather than Normals.

[Mikoh4792]

Originally Posted by Snakefood

WOW, what a read!! I have actually read every post here and here is my personal opinion.

I LOVE MORPHS!!!! I love Cornsnake morphs, I love Ball Python morphs, I love Boa morphs, I think they are beautiful and yes, I do breed them. I breed for the ones I find beautiful, different and amazing. Now if someone else likes them and buys them from me, great!! I don't care what is the "most popular" I breed what catches my eye!!

I personally think that this hobby would be incredibly boring if there were only the "normal" in any species.

I feel for those of you who's local expo's are over-run by one species, thankfully our local expo is extremely varied, We get to see many different species of snakes, Gecko's, lizards, frogs and Arachnids. I guess we're just lucky that way.

As for morph's being "man-made" that is ridiculous!! The originals of these "morphs" are genetic anomalies in the wild, captured and bred into the captive population. The most recent that I am aware of is the "Palmetto Corn", a fully grown, mature male was captured IN THE WILD, and bought by a breeder who then bred that male into his captive collection. (again, my opinion, these Palmettos are GORGEOUS!!)

To answer the original question of "My view of the reptile Hobby": My view is that individual people all have individual ideas of what they love about their chosen species, and that is what makes us such a varied population. And I love it!!

"What would I change??" well I can't remember who actually said it (it was many pages ago now!) but I would change the way pet stores sell their reptiles. In my personal experience, the owners of these stores (I am sure there are exceptions) don't care about giving proper information on care and husbandry, they care about their profit margins. To give an example: a local pet store sells snakes and other reptiles, I was looking for a part-time job that I would enjoy and because of my experience with most of the species of snakes he sold, he hired me on. However, whenever I gave a customer good advice on husbandry, I would get pulled aside and told to say something different. "Why", you ask?? Because the proper advice that I gave on the care of these beautiful creatures did not always make him the most $$. I was told to "stop thinking like a breeder and to start thinking like a sales person" I don't think I need to add that I no longer work there, I have gone back into the office where I make $$, and I keep my collection of snakes, I breed them, aiming for the morphs I WANT to create, and they are properly cared for.

IMO...... MISINFORMATION (whether purposeful or not) is what needs to be changed and bettered in this hobby, not whether or not X and Y person(s) are breeding morphs rather than Normals.

Great post! You and I have differing opinions but I won't chastise you for them! It's all about discussion and I just started this thread to know where people's heads are at about this topic.

[Snakefood]

Originally Posted by Mikoh4792

Great post! You and I have differing opinions but I won't chastise you for them! It's all about discussion and I just started this thread to know where people's heads are at about this topic.

Well, that's where my head is at, some will call me selfish for breeding the morphs I find attractive....koodos for them, that's their opinion and everyone is welcome to have one!!

Don't get me wrong, I love the normals too, I have an Okeetee Corn (which is actually considered a normal, (and NO I don't know if it is a Locality Okeetee or not) And I have 2 Columbian Red tail Boa's, and I have 5 Normal BP's in my collection. But I also have some AMAZING morph BP's and am gearing up for 2 awesome projects with Cornsnakes!! (Oh and I would so love a Salmon Boa..... GORGEOUS!!)

[CosmicOwl]

The only thing that bugs me about morphs is when people breed them just to throw as many morphs into an animal as possible. Think about how many corn snakes are just a slightly different version of pink. It would nice to see more people selecting localities and line breeding animals to get things like the extreme Okeetees, which have a really distinctive look.

[Snakefood]

But it isn't always about throwing as many morphs into one snake, it is (at least for me) what morphs is it going to take to reach my goal, sometimes it's two, sometimes it's 4. Sometimes it takes one generation, sometimes it takes 3. I really like high contrast snakes, which is why I like the Okeetee and Palmetto Corns. Although I also really like the Coral snows and Orchids, which even though they don't have a lot of contrast, their coloring is beautiful.

There is one BP morph that I have only seen one person produce, In some future season, I would like to start on that project, it is going to take 4 different morphs and 3 generations, but I believe it will be worth it in the end. I don't care how many morphs' genes are in the snake, be it 1 or 5, I just love the colors/patterns that are in the one snake that comes out in the end!!

[smy_749]

Morphs are man-made after you go past the basic morphs. There is 0% chance you would get high-way ball python or a Puma or whatever else, I can't think of complicated morphs off the top of my head but you get the point. Multiple gene animals like we see in the industry have a TINY chance of occurring naturally. Yellow gene and blue gene are wild, making painting on a canvas with yellow/blue/green/(whatever else those combinations can make) in a striped or banded pattern is different.

[Snakefood]

Originally Posted by smy_749

Morphs are man-made after you go past the basic morphs. There is 0% chance you would get high-way ball python or a Puma or whatever else, I can't think of complicated morphs off the top of my head but you get the point. Multiple gene animals like we see in the industry have a TINY chance of occurring naturally. Yellow gene and blue gene are wild, making painting on a canvas with yellow/blue/green/(whatever else those combinations can make) in a striped or banded pattern is different.

Very true. But then again, we can say the same (speaking genetically only) about every species of dog in the world. none of them would have been created without humans keeping and breeding the "Morphs" (for lack of a better term) How else would a maltese have been bred down form wolves and dingos??

For many of us, breeding for a specific "look" IS part of the hobby. And as far as I am concerned, as long as the animals are kept and fed properly, then that's OK.

[psychocircus]

Originally Posted by Snakefood

Very true. But then again, we can say the same (speaking genetically only) about every species of dog in the world. none of them would have been created without humans keeping and breeding the "Morphs" (for lack of a better term) How else would a maltese have been bred down form wolves and dingos??

For many of us, breeding for a specific "look" IS part of the hobby. And as far as I am concerned, as long as the animals are kept and fed properly, then that's OK.

good point.
and keeping them purebred makes them much more susceptible to certain predisposed diseases/health issues.
for example flat face dogs often have respiratory issues, certain shepherds have hip dysplasia, etc.

It goes back to humans being selfish to meet their needs. Most bp morphs are no less "healthy" than the originals though.

[Snakefood]

Originally Posted by psychocircus

good point.
and keeping them purebred makes them much more susceptible to certain predisposed diseases/health issues.
for example flat face dogs often have respiratory issues, certain shepherds have hip dysplasia, etc.

It goes back to humans being selfish to meet their needs. Most bp morphs are no less "healthy" than the originals though.

Yes, that is very true, as a former vet tech, I could go on forever about breed specific illness and weaknesses. Of course humans have been breeding dogs to suit their purposes for thousands of years, so it is rarely thought of as breeding for certain characteristics anymore, it is just thought of as breeding your chosen breed never considering what the "normal" version was! (of course the Wolf, Coyote, Dingo and African Wild Dog)

And 1000 years from now, the same ideology will probably apply to the breeding of morphs in the reptile world.

I agree, humans are selfish by nature, but that is how we got to the top of the food chain(so to speak), it wasn't accomplished by thinking of others!!