Why is this considered acceptable?

[RAD House]

I think it has to do with understanding the natural history of the animal. A monitor are active hunters in the wild where as both ball pythons and green tree pythons are sit and wait ambush predators. That is why both species of snakes can thrive in a smaller enclosure than what you may think is acceptable for a snake their size. In the case of ball pythons people think they are notoriously finicky eaters, but I think this mainly has to do with husbandry because people who have been in the hobby for a long time seem to have less problems. Most people obsess about temps and humidity but ignore that ball pythons must feel secure. Ball pythons spend a good amount of their time crammed into small spaces. When being collected they are most often found in termite mounds and require a good amount of diggind to get them out. I agree if the animal thrives than who are we to say which method is best as we are all mostly hobbyist. On a side note that tub does look awfully small for a snake that size.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by bigsnakegirl785

... Fatty liver disease and obesity is common in ball pythons,..

I think this has less to do with enclosure size than it does with diets and moronic people overfeeding snakes. A lot of snakes in general are obese.

Originally Posted by MesoCorney

I think it has to do with understanding the natural history of the animal. A monitor are active hunters in the wild where as both ball pythons and green tree pythons are sit and wait ambush predators. That is why both species of snakes can thrive in a smaller enclosure than what you may think is acceptable for a snake their size. In the case of ball pythons people think they are notoriously finicky eaters, but I think this mainly has to do with husbandry because people who have been in the hobby for a long time seem to have less problems. Most people obsess about temps and humidity but ignore that ball pythons must feel secure. Ball pythons spend a good amount of their time crammed into small spaces. When being collected they are most often found in termite mounds and require a good amount of diggind to get them out. I agree if the animal thrives than who are we to say which method is best as we are all mostly hobbyist. On a side note that tub does look awfully small for a snake that size.

Well said. Nothing to add to it. I simply agree that as long as the animal is properly cared for then I don't have a problem with a tub, enclosure, aquarium etc.



I will say however, for those who weren't around 2 decades ago tubs are a huge reason that the hobby is where it is today. It really helped get a lot of "hard to keep", "hard to acclimate" and "hard to breed" species in the mainstream.

Here's how it works...tubs and rack systems streamlined keeping. It allowed keepers to dial in humidity, heat, security and diets to learn how to keep species alive and eventually breed. It took out the variables of different substrates, trying to heat too much room or keep humidity up with an overhead heat lamp (one of the few ways to heat an enclosure 20 years ago), sickness and illnesses and etc.

Since then, especially in the previous 5 or so years, there's been a marked increase of people starting to go back to a more naturalistic environment for their charges. It's fantastic to see and I hope it continues.

[SSSSnakes]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

I think this has less to do with enclosure size than it does with diets and moronic people overfeeding snakes. A lot of snakes in general are obese.



Well said. Nothing to add to it. I simply agree that as long as the animal is properly cared for then I don't have a problem with a tub, enclosure, aquarium etc.



I will say however, for those who weren't around 2 decades ago tubs are a huge reason that the hobby is where it is today. It really helped get a lot of "hard to keep", "hard to acclimate" and "hard to breed" species in the mainstream.

Here's how it works...tubs and rack systems streamlined keeping. It allowed keepers to dial in humidity, heat, security and diets to learn how to keep species alive and eventually breed. It took out the variables of different substrates, trying to heat too much room or keep humidity up with an overhead heat lamp (one of the few ways to heat an enclosure 20 years ago), sickness and illnesses and etc.

Since then, especially in the previous 5 or so years, there's been a marked increase of people starting to go back to a more naturalistic environment for their charges. It's fantastic to see and I hope it continues.

Well said Aaron. We have been agreeing a lot more lately, that is scary. LOL

[bigsnakegirl785]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

I think this has less to do with enclosure size than it does with diets and moronic people overfeeding snakes. A lot of snakes in general are obese.

I was thinking it was more a combination of a sedentery lifestyle and diet, which a small enclosure that only allows the snake to take up one half or the other definitely encourage. A snake that is fed conservatively and allowed to expend energy is more likely to stay fit. They don't expend much, but snakes still definitely spend hours and hours crawling around, when depends on the species. Unfortunately, handling time doesn't make up for a snake not allowed space to actually crawl around. 30-60 minutes max doesn't compare to the 6-8 straight hours a nocturnal snake would be spending exploring its cage at night, or the amount a garter snake would spend exploring. I see my garters out at any time of the day, they take a short break and start up again, they easily spend half the day (including night) moving around unless in shed or they recently ate.

I have no problems with stand-alone tubs, I love them for juvenile and subadult snakes, but generally the tubs used in racks are nothing compared to a stand alone tub. Rack tubs seem to stay under 12" in height and are thin in width like a glass aquarium, while you can get stand alone tubs that are nearly 2" in height and have a fairly evenly distributed length and width.

They function for what they're meant for, and as long as the snake's needs are met then do as you wish. I just don't think racks are the best we could be doing for our animals is all.

I actually find my tubs to be set ups that are more difficult to control. I have a harder time maintaining the high humidity most of my snakes need and the temps depend on the room more so than my full-sized enclosures with overhead heat. I have to heat the entire room to the minimum temperature for the snakes. Sure, they can stay warm enough to survive if they hug their heat tape, but if the room is too cold then that's all they do, they can't explore because it's too cold. If I offer a basking shelf and heat just the top, with my full-sized enclosures I can keep the room quite a bit cooler, as well as being able to more easily maintain humidity. The most I can do in my tubs is mist, and misting doesn't do much for the humidity. It might bump it to where it needs to be for an hour before the dryness of my heated room causes it all to evaporate away. Tubs and racks are a headache for me and I see them more as a temporary enclosure, but if you have success with it then go for it, as I've stated many times it's only when the snake isn't having its needs met that I have a problem.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by bigsnakegirl785

I was thinking it was more a combination of a sedentery lifestyle and diet, which a small enclosure that only allows the snake to take up one half or the other definitely encourage. A snake that is fed conservatively and allowed to expend energy is more likely to stay fit. They don't expend much, but snakes still definitely spend hours and hours crawling around, when depends on the species. Unfortunately, handling time doesn't make up for a snake not allowed space to actually crawl around. 30-60 minutes max doesn't compare to the 6-8 straight hours a nocturnal snake would be spending exploring its cage at night, or the amount a garter snake would spend exploring. I see my garters out at any time of the day, they take a short break and start up again, they easily spend half the day (including night) moving around unless in shed or they recently ate.

Why does an enclosure mean a snake isn't sedentary while a tub means they are? The surface area may be smaller but it doesn't mean the snake isn't moving. It may just make more circuits in a given time frame than in a bigger enclosure.

I have no problems with stand-alone tubs, I love them for juvenile and subadult snakes, but generally the tubs used in racks are nothing compared to a stand alone tub. Rack tubs seem to stay under 12" in height and are thin in width like a glass aquarium, while you can get stand alone tubs that are nearly 2" in height and have a fairly evenly distributed length and width.

They function for what they're meant for, and as long as the snake's needs are met then do as you wish. I just don't think racks are the best we could be doing for our animals is all.

I actually find my tubs to be set ups that are more difficult to control. I have a harder time maintaining the high humidity most of my snakes need and the temps depend on the room more so than my full-sized enclosures with overhead heat. I have to heat the entire room to the minimum temperature for the snakes. Sure, they can stay warm enough to survive if they hug their heat tape, but if the room is too cold then that's all they do, they can't explore because it's too cold. If I offer a basking shelf and heat just the top, with my full-sized enclosures I can keep the room quite a bit cooler, as well as being able to more easily maintain humidity. The most I can do in my tubs is mist, and misting doesn't do much for the humidity. It might bump it to where it needs to be for an hour before the dryness of my heated room causes it all to evaporate away. Tubs and racks are a headache for me and I see them more as a temporary enclosure, but if you have success with it then go for it, as I've stated many times it's only when the snake isn't having its needs met that I have a problem.

Again, exceptions to every rule.

[bigsnakegirl785]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

Why does an enclosure mean a snake isn't sedentary while a tub means they are? The surface area may be smaller but it doesn't mean the snake isn't moving. It may just make more circuits in a given time frame than in a bigger enclosure.

It doesn't, but it does encourage it. You'll notice more activity out of a snake with multiple different things to explore than a snake in a cage 1/3 of its body length and nothing but a hide, even if it does laps. As loosely as I use this term, snakes get bored. Some may continue to take laps, but doing laps around a tiny rack isn't the same as being able to climb and having a cage 1/2-1x+ the snake's.

Again, I do not have a problem with tubs in general. It's possible to have adequate floor space and height with a tub, I just usually don't see such accommodations in a rack set up. After a certain size, tubs also become unsuitable for permanent housing. Even though the Christmas totes have enough room for a 6' snake, I would not keep a 6' semi-arboreal or arboreal snake in it, it would be good for a ball python or similar, though. It has a very thin width and isn't very tall. But most tubs work for snakes 5' or under (depending on species).


If you want to see how active your snakes are, try setting up a camera to view them all night! I've been seeing a few people doing this lately, and snakes they thought never moved ended up giving them 6 straight hours of footage. You'd be surprised.

[Albert Clark]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

I think this has less to do with enclosure size than it does with diets and moronic people overfeeding snakes. A lot of snakes in general are obese.


Well said. Nothing to add to it. I simply agree that as long as the animal is properly cared for then I don't have a problem with a tub, enclosure, aquarium etc.



I will say however, for those who weren't around 2 decades ago tubs are a huge reason that the hobby is where it is today. It really helped get a lot of "hard to keep", "hard to acclimate" and "hard to breed" species in the mainstream.

Here's how it works...tubs and rack systems streamlined keeping. It allowed keepers to dial in humidity, heat, security and diets to learn how to keep species alive and eventually breed. It took out the variables of different substrates, trying to heat too much room or keep humidity up with an overhead heat lamp (one of the few ways to heat an enclosure 20 years ago), sickness and illnesses and etc.

Since then, especially in the previous 5 or so years, there's been a marked increase of people starting to go back to a more naturalistic environment for their charges. It's fantastic to see and I hope it continues.

@ Aaron: Come on now, name calling is unnecessary. I overfeed a couple of my animals when they are building and if they will take food when they are gravid. I've had no slugs , no birth defects, 100% hatch rate and the female adults all are healthy and resume a normal feeding schedule. Moronic? That is really a insult.

[Andy_G]

Originally Posted by Albert Clark

@ Aaron: Come on now, name calling is unnecessary. I overfeed a couple of my animals when they are building and if they will take food when they are gravid. I've had no slugs , no birth defects, 100% hatch rate and the female adults all are healthy and resume a normal feeding schedule. Moronic? That is really a insult.

I will hold back my thoughts on this statement you've made as I don't know how many years you've successfully bred ball pythons for...but could you tell me what I'm missing here? When did Aaron single you out in this thread or call you anything?