An Unfortunate Loss

[bigsnakegirl785]

Originally Posted by Snakesitter

Again, so sorry for your loss.

I'm surprised that too large of a meal could be listed as a source of death -- while regurgs are stressful, they are rarely fatal in and of themselves...especially within so short of a window. And sepsis is often a secondary infection after the immune system is weakened. I wonder if that rodent was just "bad"?

It's possible. I did check the mouse for overall freshness, but maybe something else was in it? My BCI and other BRB are eating the same mice from the same bag as Guin did, and they're still doing fine 2 meals later.

The vet did say it was a combination of too low temps and a big meal, which would have resulted in some of the rodent going bad in her stomach. Essentially rotting because she couldn't digest it properly. This could have caused the rodent to go "bad."

Either way, it was the meal she was provided that was the culprit.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by bigsnakegirl785

It's possible. I did check the mouse for overall freshness, but maybe something else was in it? My BCI and other BRB are eating the same mice from the same bag as Guin did, and they're still doing fine 2 meals later.

The vet did say it was a combination of too low temps and a big meal, which would have resulted in some of the rodent going bad in her stomach. Essentially rotting because she couldn't digest it properly. This could have caused the rodent to go "bad."

Either way, it was the meal she was provided that was the culprit.

I find this very interesting.

My un-educated medical guess is there is something else underlying. Possibly neurological.

Snakes aren't that dumb to put themselves in that type of harms way. A snake will regurge usually when the temps aren't adequate to digest it all the way so the fact that this snake apparently didn't do that speaks volumes about the issue at hand.

I don't see any logic in a species willingly eating itself to death.

[bigsnakegirl785]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

I find this very interesting.

My un-educated medical guess is there is something else underlying. Possibly neurological.

Snakes aren't that dumb to put themselves in that type of harms way. A snake will regurge usually when the temps aren't adequate to digest it all the way so the fact that this snake apparently didn't do that speaks volumes about the issue at hand.

I don't see any logic in a species willingly eating itself to death.

She did regurgitate. She had a small regurge 3 days after I fed her, and then what appeared to be underdigested poo about 7-8 days after her meal.

Originally Posted by Minkness

I dunno about that Aaron. What about those snakes that eat prey too big for it causing it to suffocate or burst open? There's that anaxonda that ate a caiman too big fornit and it died, then I have seen where a BP ate another BP that was almost the same size as it's self and it's stomach burst to the point you could see the snake that it had eaten.

I'm not sure about the caiman incidence, but if you're talking about the picture I think you're talking about, the ball python that was split open was incredibly emaciated, almost to the point of death. That, on top of the stress of the drive and being around so many other snakes, is most likely what led it to eating the other bp. You can even see a living bp at the top of the photo that looks like a skeleton. Or jerky, or something.

[Snakesitter]

I'd suspect an undiagnosed "source" issue here that resulted in the multiple small secondary infections, which in turn led to the regurg that alerted you to the problem. It's too bad they did not open up one of the granulomas (it is my understanding that reptile immune systems trap problem bacteria in such granulomas) and run a culture; while a long shot, it may have yielded some additional answers.

At any rate, it's all academic now -- so long as a through disinfection was done (which I am sure you did) and everyone else is healthy (and they seem to be), things should be fine.

[bigsnakegirl785]

Originally Posted by Snakesitter

I'd suspect an undiagnosed "source" issue here that resulted in the multiple small secondary infections, which in turn led to the regurg that alerted you to the problem. It's too bad they did not open up one of the granulomas (it is my understanding that reptile immune systems trap problem bacteria in such granulomas) and run a culture; while a long shot, it may have yielded some additional answers.

At any rate, it's all academic now -- so long as a through disinfection was done (which I am sure you did) and everyone else is healthy (and they seem to be), things should be fine.

From my understanding, they did open the granulomas and found Salmonella arizonae bacterium within them. I could be mistaken, though, they did mention the granulomas and they did take samples from the liver. It wasn't mentioned in the report whether or not they tested the granulomas specifically. Most of the biggest, fastest-growing colonies were found in the large intestine, which to me indicates more of a digestive issue, since the intestines are where the majority of digestion takes place. Whether it was the prey size+temps, or a rodent gone bad I'm not sure.

Everybody else appears normal still, and with how fast Guin was affected I think we're past the point where I'd start noticing problems in everyone else. They have yet to pass feces from their most recent meal, but I've seen no regurges from anyone so far.

Originally Posted by treaux

Interesting to think it was the food size. Makes me nervous about switching my little Marco to hoppers eventually (though that won't be for a while...).

If it was the prey size, it would be in conjunction with temperatures too low to allow for proper digestion of a meal that size. If it was the prey size in and of itself, they would notice physical damage in her digestive tract. I think your Marco will be fine being switched to hoppers when the time comes. My BRB Sanji is currently around 140-150 grams (he was 154 grams today, but ate recently so he's probably 140-something grams empty) and is almost ready to move up from hoppers. I moved him onto hoppers around the time he hit 80-85 grams, and he may have been able to moved to them a little sooner, not sure.

Here are the photos from the histopathology report.