Snakes ARE affectionate

[mistersprinkles]

Originally Posted by eminart

Biologically, why would a snake exhibit "love"? They aren't social animals. The very word "love" is a human construct used to explain biological adaptations that promote the spread of our genes. Other social animals exhibit some of the same "love" behaviors as humans. Reptiles, insects, etc. not so much.

I think you're anthropromorhizing the actions of your snake - actions that can be explained in ways that make more sense for a snake's natural behavior. The human brain looks for patterns. It often finds patterns where there really are none, or misinterprets animal behavior by applying human logic.

I agree with you 100%.

The reptilian brain is a very simple computer. I don't believe, at all, that it is capable of "higher emotions". I've had snakes since I was 5. I'm in my early 30s now. I have had very docile snakes but I never once felt like my snake was loving, self aware, or even capable of moderately complex thought, for that matter.

Snakes have "modes", as Steve Irwin used to say. Resting mode, mating mode, hunting mode, eating mode, exploring mode. That's it. It's like a Commodore 64 with scales.

[MDT]

Originally Posted by mistersprinkles

The reptilian brain is a very simple computer. It's like a Commodore 64 with scales.

This is quite possibly the best post of the whole thread😂 and possibly my new sig line!

Being a child of the 70's/80's...I had a Commodore 64...pretty simple indeed!

[Nuxodom]

Originally Posted by MDT

This is quite possibly the best post of the whole thread😂 and possibly my new sig line!

Being a child of the 70's/80's...I had a Commodore 64...pretty simple indeed!

I had an Atari 800, but before that a (ugg) Vic 20. :-)

[FWK]

This is the best thread this forum has produced in some time. I have re-read it several times and appreciate all of the opinions and points of view offered. Y'all made me rethink my own position on the matters discussed here. I've refrained from posting as it has developed because every time I thought I had something to say, eminart said it for me. Bravo.

sophiedufort, I will address you directly now because I believe to patronize someone is about the biggest insult I can pay another adult, and I respect the way you've handled yourself here enough to be blunt with you. I believe you are wrong, and, frankly, a bit nuts. That is my opinion, take it for whatever it is worth to you. What you do in the privacy of your own home is your business, but that you honestly believe your snakes like to be kissed on the head amazes to me. It flies in the face of everything I know to be true about snakes. Even if snakes are capable of some form of primitive emotion I simply can not fathom a snake enjoying a human kissing them on the head. This type of statement can only further the public's perception that people who keep snakes are freaks, and I adamantly maintain that I do not keep snakes because I'm a freak. I keep them because I am utterly fascinated by them. I keep them because I love animals, I love nature, I love learning about them, and studying them in both natural and captive settings. I want to know as much about them and their role in the natural world as possible. I am a skeptic, I want truth, facts, knowledge. This is where you and I are so fundamentally different. We perceive the world in very different ways. You like kissing your snakes, you get something out of it. The snake does not. It only puts up with it. The snake has learned (this is where verbiage gets a little sticky, I'll explain myself in a moment) that you are not a threat and touching its head does not trigger a fight or flight response. Now just how much the snake can actually "learn" I don't know. I use the word "learn" because I don't have a better term in my vocabulary. To say it learns implies this is knowledge it can actively employ and I don't know if this is the case, or if it is simply a conditioned response. For the most part I believe it to be a conditioned response, but I agree there is much we do not know about the reptilian brain. What I do know is that the snake does not like being kissed on the head. I think you are badly misreading your snakes behavior in many ways. Look, I admire your love for your animals and respect your opinions, but I do worry about some of your habits. Whether you like it or not, handling the snakes for long periods of time is stressful for the animals. If you really do want what is best for your snakes I implore you to take a hard look at how often and long you have them out.

Originally Posted by mistersprinkles

The reptilian brain is a very simple computer. I don't believe, at all, that it is capable of "higher emotions". I've had snakes since I was 5. I'm in my early 30s now. I have had very docile snakes but I never once felt like my snake was loving, self aware, or even capable of moderately complex thought, for that matter.

Snakes have "modes", as Steve Irwin used to say. Resting mode, mating mode, hunting mode, eating mode, exploring mode. That's it. It's like a Commodore 64 with scales.

There are quite a few statements in this thread that rang true to me, but this is a gem.

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

This thread took a turn to "light hearted" banter.

Discussing which comic book character is the most promiscuous didn't seem relevant to the subject matter at hand, or even anything to do with this forum. It looked like a rather blatant and juvenile attempt to derail an otherwise interesting thread.

[Nuxodom]

Originally Posted by FWK

What I do know is that the snake does not like being kissed on the head. I think you are badly misreading your snakes behavior in many ways.

I'm dying to read how you unquestionably *know* this. Please elaborate.

[MDT]

Originally Posted by Nuxodom

I'm dying to read how you unquestionably *know* this. Please elaborate.

What possible evolutionary advantage could a snake derive from getting kissed on its head? In higher mammals (you know, hairless apes), kissing via PET scanning, EEG, etc.,(read: measurable scientific means) to cause changes in brain activity in the pleasure centers of the brain. Dopamine, oxytocin, and other neurochemicals can be measured to increase with human touching, kissing, love/lust...MRI/PET activity shows increases (and decreases in some portions) of neural activity/blood flow. Sooooo......yeah......

Now, there may be studies out there that address similar studies in reptiles....however, I would venture that no one has wanted to spend the $$$ on this. If you can find those studies, please reference them.

Back to evolutionary advantages......in humans, those activities reinforce attraction, coupling and ultimately procreation/propagation of the species. No such activity is seen in lower vertebrates (of which, snakes are)....and you could cite the fact that most vertebrates will court a mate (def not the same tho), however, at no time in the history of life on this planet has a snake ever kissed another snake, so I can confidently say that snakes have zero idea what a kiss is, what it's for, how it work, whatever. All they see is a big hairy predator with forward facing eyes lowering its head close to theirs and for all they know, they are hoping that big hairy vertebrate isn't coming in to bite their head off.

This is how I know they don't like kissing.

[lady_bug87]

Originally Posted by FWK

This is the best thread this forum has produced in some time. I have re-read it several times and appreciate all of the opinions and points of view offered. Y'all made me rethink my own position on the matters discussed here. I've refrained from posting as it has developed because every time I thought I had something to say, eminart said it for me. Bravo.

sophiedufort, I will address you directly now because I believe to patronize someone is about the biggest insult I can pay another adult, and I respect the way you've handled yourself here enough to be blunt with you. I believe you are wrong, and, frankly, a bit nuts. That is my opinion, take it for whatever it is worth to you. What you do in the privacy of your own home is your business, but that you honestly believe your snakes like to be kissed on the head amazes to me. It flies in the face of everything I know to be true about snakes. Even if snakes are capable of some form of primitive emotion I simply can not fathom a snake enjoying a human kissing them on the head. This type of statement can only further the public's perception that people who keep snakes are freaks, and I adamantly maintain that I do not keep snakes because I'm a freak. I keep them because I am utterly fascinated by them. I keep them because I love animals, I love nature, I love learning about them, and studying them in both natural and captive settings. I want to know as much about them and their role in the natural world as possible. I am a skeptic, I want truth, facts, knowledge. This is where you and I are so fundamentally different. We perceive the world in very different ways. You like kissing your snakes, you get something out of it. The snake does not. It only puts up with it. The snake has learned (this is where verbiage gets a little sticky, I'll explain myself in a moment) that you are not a threat and touching its head does not trigger a fight or flight response. Now just how much the snake can actually "learn" I don't know. I use the word "learn" because I don't have a better term in my vocabulary. To say it learns implies this is knowledge it can actively employ and I don't know if this is the case, or if it is simply a conditioned response. For the most part I believe it to be a conditioned response, but I agree there is much we do not know about the reptilian brain. What I do know is that the snake does not like being kissed on the head. I think you are badly misreading your snakes behavior in many ways. Look, I admire your love for your animals and respect your opinions, but I do worry about some of your habits. Whether you like it or not, handling the snakes for long periods of time is stressful for the animals. If you really do want what is best for your snakes I implore you to take a hard look at how often and long you have them out.



There are quite a few statements in this thread that rang true to me, but this is a gem.



Discussing which comic book character is the most promiscuous didn't seem relevant to the subject matter at hand, or even anything to do with this forum. It looked like a rather blatant and juvenile attempt to derail an otherwise interesting thread.

When threads get derailed like this its because people have chosen to momentarily break tension. it gives the topic some cool-down time. That's what you need sometimes when you're beating a dead horse. A break.