Incubation Question!

[Chu'Wuti]

For an unexpected clutch of Lampropeltis triangulum hondurensis that arrived when I had no incubator (a situation similar to yours--I had just bought a female that the owner thought was obese, but he had sold her to another person then got her back), I have successfully incubated eggs in long-fiber sphagnum moss. The person who sold her to me said he has used this method for years. I soaked the moss in water, then squeezed out most of the water. I put a layer of moss down into a plastic tub--shoebox sized, then the eggs, then another thinner layer of moss. Though the previous owner/breeder usually puts the box up on top of a high counter, as we kept our house cooler, I put the tub on a heat pad with a thermostat set to 82 degrees.

I was told to and did check the humidity only once a week--the less you open the box, the better the humidity retention. Mist no more than once a week if necessary.

He recommended not incubating the separated egg with the other eggs just in case the separated egg is a dud and starts to grow fungus. If it does grow a fungus, keeping it in a separate tub will prevent the spread of the fungus to the remaining eggs.

Glad you're not rotating the eggs--these are not chickens and should never be rotated. Do not try to separate the eggs that are stuck together, either.

Mark your calendar for 60 days after the laying and start watching for pipping at that time.

Good luck!

[Gregg M]

Originally Posted by Chu'Wuti

For an unexpected clutch of Lampropeltis triangulum hondurensis that arrived when I had no incubator (a situation similar to yours--I had just bought a female that the owner thought was obese, but he had sold her to another person then got her back), I have successfully incubated eggs in long-fiber sphagnum moss. The person who sold her to me said he has used this method for years. I soaked the moss in water, then squeezed out most of the water. I put a layer of moss down into a plastic tub--shoebox sized, then the eggs, then another thinner layer of moss. Though the previous owner/breeder usually puts the box up on top of a high counter, as we kept our house cooler, I put the tub on a heat pad with a thermostat set to 82 degrees.

It cringe when I hear stories like this. I can not understand why anyone would sell off a gravid snake. It can cause a multitude of problems. If someone is a snake breeder, they should know the difference between a fat snake and a gravid one very easily.

Originally Posted by Chu'Wuti

I was told to and did check the humidity only once a week--the less you open the box, the better the humidity retention. Mist no more than once a week if necessary.

If you are using the right materials and containers and properly set up your incubation container, there is never a reason to add any water or mist ever. We incubate monitor eggs for well over 100 days and never had to add a drop of water. This is one reason why using mosses and coco fiber as an incubation substrate is a very bad idea. Not to mention the fact that eggs should not be getting their humidity directly from the substrate they are in.

Originally Posted by Chu'Wuti

He recommended not incubating the separated egg with the other eggs just in case the separated egg is a dud and starts to grow fungus. If it does grow a fungus, keeping it in a separate tub will prevent the spread of the fungus to the remaining eggs.

Fungus will not affect good healthy eggs even if there is one growing fungus right next to it. I had a huge clumped clutch of corn snake eggs a few years ago. An egg directly in the middle of the pile was an infertile. That egg looked like Santas beard and none of the other eggs grew mold. If eggs grow mold or fungus, it is because the eggs is either very weak or already dead. Good healthy eggs do not grow mold. Good, healthy eggs have a very good immune system.

Originally Posted by Chu'Wuti

Do not try to separate the eggs that are stuck together, either.

When first laid, eggs can be safely and easily separated. However, in general that bit of advice is very good and I must agree.

[Teal]

Thanks yall!

So I did find some perlite today... Mind you, a bag as big as I am! LOL

I dampened the perlite and squeezed out the excess water... I laid down about 1.5 inches of it, made a little dent, put the clump of eggs in there and nestled the unattached one in with them because it looks fine, and covered them with a thin layer of more perlite (mostly because they're already dimpled, so I want them to get rehydrated)

Now, I have a HUGE concern - Since I was handling the eggs anyways, I thought I would candle them just to see what they look like...

EVERY single one, what I am assuming is the embryo (the big red splotch) is on the BOTTOM of the egg!

Like I said - I did NOT rotate them when I removed them from my female, nor since. They were already well stuck together in a clump, and even still I marked the tops. I lifted them straight out as they were (supported on a bit of cardboard).

Is there any way for them to develop like this? Or, am I just daft and this is how they're meant to be? Everyone keeps telling me the embryo should be at the "top" of the egg.

[Gregg M]

Originally Posted by Teal

Now, I have a HUGE concern - Since I was handling the eggs anyways, I thought I would candle them just to see what they look like...

EVERY single one, what I am assuming is the embryo (the big red splotch) is on the BOTTOM of the egg!

Like I said - I did NOT rotate them when I removed them from my female, nor since. They were already well stuck together in a clump, and even still I marked the tops. I lifted them straight out as they were (supported on a bit of cardboard).

Is there any way for them to develop like this? Or, am I just daft and this is how they're meant to be? Everyone keeps telling me the embryo should be at the "top" of the egg.

It does not matter where you see the bullseye. It does not have to be on the top. That is a complete myth. It could be on the bottom, top, sides, or anywhere inbetween. The eggs will develop just fine.

[Teal]

Oh, GOOD! Thank you! I was told to rotate the eggs, like I said before.. but I just couldn't do it, even when they were telling me the embryos should be at the top.

Well, I'm a lot more confident now that these guys might make it! Thanks again!

[Chu'Wuti]

Hey, Gregg,

I can not understand why anyone would sell off a gravid snake. It can cause a multitude of problems. If someone is a snake breeder, they should know the difference between a fat snake and a gravid one very easily.

I don't disagree. However, in the man's defense, he has been going through a rough time, with (among other stressors) his homeowner's insurance being pulled because the insurer learned he was keeping snakes. After negotiating with the insurer to maintain the insurance while he divested himself of his snakes (and while seeking other insurance), he began selling off his snakes. He sold this particular snake to another person, who kept her for three months, then sold her back; it was clear she had been "maintained" in very unsanitary conditions. He increased her feedings to rebuild her strength and felt he had overfed her. She laid only 5 eggs. There were enough unusual factors that it really wasn't clear she was gravid to either of us, though I must confess I didn't check for that, which is definitely a bad decision on my part.

If you are using the right materials and containers and properly set up your incubation container, there is never a reason to add any water or mist ever. We incubate monitor eggs for well over 100 days and never had to add a drop of water. This is one reason why using mosses and coco fiber as an incubation substrate is a very bad idea. Not to mention the fact that eggs should not be getting their humidity directly from the substrate they are in.

Absolutely correct. However, this was an emergency that demanded an immediate remedy with whatever was available. I had had the snake only five days and had no plans to breed her until next year, nor was I set up for breeding at the time, because we have been remodeling--to the point that the roof and ceiling had been removed and our interior stairs were, at one point, a "stairway to heaven." I bought her partly to help my friend out of his fix and partly as part of a future breeding project, but this past fall (when she laid) was NOT a good time, as all of my supplies were in storage and inaccessible. The moss & plastic shoebox were the quickest fix I could achieve under the circumstances--both things I already had in the house that I could find easily and that would take up much space. Space was a huge issue--boxes and furniture (and snakes) were being moved from room to room as the remodeling progressed, so getting an incubator set up was extremely problematic, as it would have had to be moved multiple times during the incubation period. Under the unsettled circumstances, we felt that it would be safer for the eggs to be in the "quick & dirty" incubation solution than in a "proper" incubation setup.

Fungus will not affect good healthy eggs even if there is one growing fungus right next to it. I had a huge clumped clutch of corn snake eggs a few years ago. An egg directly in the middle of the pile was an infertile. That egg looked like Santas beard and none of the other eggs grew mold. If eggs grow mold or fungus, it is because the eggs is either very weak or already dead. Good healthy eggs do not grow mold. Good, healthy eggs have a very good immune system.

That's really good to hear. However, it wasn't my friend's opinion or experience. At least, I'll say, it didn't fit his interpretation of his experience--he'd had an entire clutch die with fungus and believed it was because he hadn't removed the first egg to show fungus. On the other hand, he told me he'd had some fairly "fungusy" eggs (that he incubated separately) go ahead and hatch perfectly healthy snakes, so suggested I keep the dud egg until the others hatched just in case it might hatch. As it turned out, the dud egg did develop fungus and did not hatch, while the other four never developed fungus--seeming to support either your or my friend's claims--and hatched four healthy Hondurans.

When first laid, eggs can be safely and easily separated.

This is something I have read contradictory opinions on. I personally am not comfortable separating the eggs, but perhaps they can be separated immediately after being laid without risk or with minimal risk. I've never tried that.

My intent in my original post was simply to reassure Teal that a successful hatching CAN be achieved even with a less-than-optimal setup, as I have been able to accomplish that myself. However, I will certainly agree that providing optimal conditions whenever possible is far better, and I much prefer to use a properly set up incubator!

Fortunately for me, we are about to get our remodeling project completed, so I will soon be able to set up my snake area and really have fun!