border
sSNAKESs : Reptile Forum
 

Go Back   sSNAKESs : Reptile Forum > Community Forums > General Discussion

Notices

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-29-11, 10:19 PM   #1
ugo
Member
 
ugo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov-2011
Location: near Florence
Posts: 20
Country:
"Much to do about nothing", Racks versus snakes'wellness

I apologize for *my usual bad english; **my inability to read again what i wrote, then it will be filled with mistakes , as usual.

RACKS VERSUS SNAKES' WELLNESS

"Much edo about nothing" (W. Shakespeare)

The huge racks' utility is out of matter ! but there are things we all experience everyday, the most evident are : the APATHY, and the unmotivated, episodic, sudden AGGRESSIVITY of the snakes kept in the racks.
Here some of my past observations and considerations on about 7 years (2000-2006, 3 consecutive breeding seasons), with 5 Species involved, kept i n parallel either in Racks (Freedom Breeders ones Freedom Breeder - The Original and Still the Best! - Reptile Racks ) and Vivaria (Herptek, i use above all this one .Herptek - professional reptile housing also for Corallus and Chondros).

Species
Python regius CB
Morelia spilota cheynei CB
Thamnophis s. tetrataenia CB
Dasypeltis palmarum WC
Naja annulifera WC
 
There are 2 ways about keeping : 1) USA Keepers are minimalist : newspaper as substrate, a water bowl and an hiding box; 2) European ones prefer a 'naturalistic' viv, too rich in fornitures and hard to mantain and clean: I am in between the 2, my terraria are easy to clean and have surrogates for branches, leaves etc. Sometimes i use newspapers : several studies committed by several organizations (I love to recall U of the most knowledge-rich amongst theEuropean non-professional ones : The EUROPEAN SNAKE SOCIETY,The European Snake Society and its journal, Litteratura Serpentium) showed that - a part from a few English newspapers- newspapers and their inks are safe to the snakes and pets.Another study, commissioned by the Chicago Herpetological Society (1985-88, i think ) had similar results. Chicago Herpetological Society. The last positive one i read is an Australian study i can quote fully, cause i have here the work : "Preliminary Evaluation of a Recycled Paper Product as a Cage Substrate" by N. Davie, in Advanced Herpetoculture, n° 1, 1996.
For the arboreal snakes i add false leaves -useful as hiding places, for keeping humidity and for drinking- false branches, hidingh box (ttp://www.ms-reptilien.de/product_info.php?cPath=4_40_469&products_id=7689) , and as substrate i use a mix of Sphagnum moss + cocos fibres, pre-loaded in HOT water : every time i spray the viv, it keeps the requested humidity for hours without any mold troubles .(the new product, wood chips, is very promising).
 
I used only omogeneous data for the 2 groups; data were processed by the STUDENT Q TEST for the SIGNIFICATIVITY, and here are shown those resulting 'Significative' at various degrees.
 
Given my past, I'm more used to deal with matters from their 'inside' -in the meantime many herpetologists (Avery, Lillywhite) were observing behavior and recordering basking times, i was investigating the possible involvement of localized cerebral GABA and GABA-like receptors in the same basking behavior-.
This is my limit : I can be a PERFECT SUCKER. attempting observations from the 'outside'.
and more : the few snakes involved, the lackness of an objective method -as the double-blind - make these observations NOT SCIENTIFIC ONES at all, they are only friendly notes about what happened to me.
I apologize also for the lack of Bibliography : but since my divorce I am not free to go and check my papers and books at my library, then i put a few ones from memory.
 
The lack of movement and the prolonged hypoxia -snakes deal well with transitory hypoxia (C. Gans, Series Editor "Biology of Reptilia" vol.5) as stagnant CO2 increase at the lower layer inside the rack's boxes, and the possible light-toxic plastic esalations, and similar, cannot be excluded as contributory causes, even if the first cause appears to be the lack of STIMULI (and movement).
Sensory depression negatively affects all the Vertebrates : Human beings transitionally and experimentally deprived of sensory imputs (sight and touch), lose the kinesthetic sense and go into a state of confusion and shock.
Kittens and youg monkeys raised in an environment lacking of stimuli show 1) huge difficulties in growing up; 2) several pathologic disorders; 3) inability to socialize; 4) inability to mate & breed. The same happened to kittens derpived of sight and mums,but not to kittens deprived of sight and mums but forced to move.(Ethically horrible experiments of the past! I agree with Ur disguste, but our knowledge on Physiology is builded on crudelity!!!!!!!)
(1 for all : "PSYCHOLOGY -as a behaviour science-" H:F: Harlow; R.F. Thompson; J.L. McGaugh. Albion Pub: S.Franc. around 1971)
please : keep in mind snakes are 'social animals', their way. They learn -as every others- a lot from adults as juvenile. they have their social interactions and a very rich life
(A. Siegel, every his works and above all "Snakes. Echology and Behavior"; Crews on Thamnophis; B: Henderson about caribbean Corallus)
By using lizards (Genera Lacerta/Anolis/Dipsosaurus) either as laboratory animals (Crews) and to study thermoregulation (Lillywhite, Avery) and hormones-linked courtship and mating (Crews), Authors noticed they had to modiphy their too simple vivs and make them more interesting -by adding simple wood-cubes at the bottom-in order to avoid the evident apathy of the lizards.
About the so called "fossorial snakes" : there are really a few ones we can put in that group , but they aren't so easy to see in the hobby. Surely we cannot put amongst them the Python regius : although they spend the day buried, their behavior changes totally at night : they love climb and hunt on bushes preys, also on sparrows (Passer sp), not at all a fossorial prey : I quote only 1 paper about the related species P. anchietae, but U can find several about this topic : Spauls, S:"P. anchietae, habitat, behavior, colour, diet" Journalof Herpetological Association of Africa, about 1993, and in the same Journal have to be some other papers by Haagner, if I remember well.
I can add my dayly (ehm... nightly) experience about P. regius night climbing activity!!!!!!!!!!!!
********
- PSYCHOLOGICAL WELLNESS :
Arbitrarily I took as index of wellness the numbers/frequency of "tongue-flickings"
( see works by Chiszar, D; Chiszar, D and Radcliffe, CW, above all in Animal Behavior, 1988.......2005)
- at every meal
- after cleaning the terrarium
- random by a 5' web-cam recording
tongue flickings were significatively higher in number amongst the snakes in the vivs, showing that the snakes were alert and interested as expected.
 
- FEEDING
Although i took many data about feeding, metabolism and energetics, and i saw which ones followed or diverged from the Dawson-Bennet metabolic equation, i cannot use the collected data because of the inherent limitations of the experimental apparatus (Moruzzi's resting chambers): I performed allometric extrapolations, of course, but we....could fly to Fantasy.
(i strongly advice everyone of U to read again theMetabolism and Energetics in the above quoted vol 5 of the Biology of Reptilia, by C. Gans , Series Editor, Academic Press; current vol 20 and 21 changed Publisher. The 'Toxinologists" amongst U will find there 1 of the 3 very startings of contemporary TOXINOLOGY):
Anyway, only to say something very simple : Thamnophis in the vivaria were more voracious and had higher metabolic rates; P. regius fed more in the racks. Dasypeltis palmarum met the Dawson-Bennet equation only at 23°C.
- GROWTH RATES
In the racks the diagram curve had an "S" shape
in the vivs it had a "Steps" shape (a lower growth rate but more lasting)
- MUSCLE TONE and % of muscolar tissue versus % of fat/subcutaneous tissues
Only 2 records (on adult P. regius) by using a Miometer (MYOTON) for spasticity (Tone, Elasticity, Stiffness) :
showed flaccidity of the muscolar tissue and other investigations showed an its % decrease
- TEMPERATURE
Resting selected temperature in the racks were colder than the ones in the vivs; of course it can be only an inherent artifact : the rack's boxes are smaller than the vivs and there is not a real 'gradient' inside them, but only a warm side and a cold side.
- MORBIDITY
A light, but significative, increment of morbidity/light diseases amongst the rack's snakes
- SLOUGING
More frequent in the rack's group
- BREEDING as
Fertility = numbers of new-borns, either as a total number and as a % versus dead ones + slugs : racks showed a decrement starting from the 2nd breeding season.
Male sperm cells : they were as low in number as always, or having scarce motility, not significative differences between the 2 groups.
A great number of my breeding failures showed that the problem was related to males fertility. Only in C. caninus it was due to the female obesity, like as the fat tissue sequestred the LH and FSH.
There is a direct correspondence between the release of stress-hormones (adrenal gland) and various degrees of reproductive inability in many of the male vertebrates. ( then, perhaps, I have to do more efforts to make the males feeling more confortable in their enclosures).
Since my divorce, given the lack of space, i started keeping snakes in pairs, and i noticed a dramatic improvement of the males sperm!
Surely i omitted or forgot important data
 
Breeding Chickens
 
Would U keep Ur puppy, dog or cat, all his life locked in a closet?
I was a collector, now i prefer keeping few snakes/a time.(after a few breeding seasons, i change Species), but still i need racks.
Here people took to the streets and asks for the wellness of chickens and pigs at the breeding farms: Are our snakes less worthy?
I have no solutions : I use racks, but i dislike them.
ugo is offline  
Login to remove ads
Old 11-29-11, 10:34 PM   #2
infernalis
Moderator
 
infernalis's Avatar
 
Join Date: May-2008
Location: Central New York State
Age: 60
Posts: 16,536
Country:
Re: "Much to do about nothing", Racks versus snakes'wellness

I agree Ugo.



Center 2 tanks - garter snakes



__________________
"Where would we be without the agitators of the world attaching the electrodes
of knowledge to the nipples of ignorance?"
infernalis is offline  
Old 11-29-11, 11:10 PM   #3
stephanbakir
Retic Fanatic
 
stephanbakir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar-2011
Age: 35
Posts: 7,119
Country:
Re: "Much to do about nothing", Racks versus snakes'wellness

I've kept animals in racks and vision type enclosures, while I do prefer vision type enclosures for most things, its much more convenient to keep them in a rack. All of my snakes get to roam the house every other day, I've got climbing setups in every room in the house. I've had a few WC retics a while back that I couldn't freely let loose and I HATED it, it was much harder to keep them in shape. I'm not personally against racks, but I do accept that in the long run, vision type enclosures are better for SOME SPECIES.
The species I believe do not need large elaborate enclosures are, Ball pythons, Gaboon vipers and puff adders (only snakes I've owned that I never see roaming once they hit adulthood)
__________________
People who know everything are often clueless.
stephanbakir is offline  
Old 11-29-11, 11:27 PM   #4
infernalis
Moderator
 
infernalis's Avatar
 
Join Date: May-2008
Location: Central New York State
Age: 60
Posts: 16,536
Country:
Re: "Much to do about nothing", Racks versus snakes'wellness

Free roaming vipers, that would be a sight, now wouldnt it.
__________________
"Where would we be without the agitators of the world attaching the electrodes
of knowledge to the nipples of ignorance?"
infernalis is offline  
Old 11-30-11, 12:15 AM   #5
stephanbakir
Retic Fanatic
 
stephanbakir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar-2011
Age: 35
Posts: 7,119
Country:
Re: "Much to do about nothing", Racks versus snakes'wellness

Quote:
Originally Posted by infernalis View Post
Free roaming vipers, that would be a sight, now wouldnt it.
I meant roaming their enclosures. I never let any of my venomous stuff "roam" but one of my mangroves and my king cobra, and with the king, I always had a hand on him and he was ridiculously calm (about a year before I gave him up I got a reality check, the rock quary close to my house blew some dynamite and the snake flipped out. Never took that risk again with any of my animals, you can NEVER control everything.)
__________________
People who know everything are often clueless.
stephanbakir is offline  
Login to remove ads
Old 12-01-11, 12:22 PM   #6
jarich
Member
 
jarich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct-2011
Posts: 2,237
Country:
Re: "Much to do about nothing", Racks versus snakes'wellness

Thanks for the post Ugo! Thats some very interesting reading. I agree, I dont think racks are a good environment for any animal. While Im sure you can keep a snake 'healthy' in a rack, neurological development is all about stimulus, and lets face it, there isnt any in a rack. Keeping animals is a big responsibility, if we as animal keepers arent able to take on that responsibility then we should reduce the number of animals until that level of care is possible. This hobby can get very addicting and its easy to let justifications creep in, but that's essentially what they are - justifications.
__________________
The plural of anecdote is not data
jarich is offline  
Old 12-01-11, 10:01 PM   #7
minaa
Member
 
minaa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct-2011
Posts: 47
Country:
Re: "Much to do about nothing", Racks versus snakes'wellness

This may help me reconsider my thoughts on getting a small rack. Interesting.
__________________
0.1.0 BP
2.2 Cats
0.0.3 Goldfish 0.0.1 betta
minaa is offline  
Old 12-01-11, 10:12 PM   #8
millertime89
Forum Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep-2011
Location: Overhill and underhill.
Posts: 7,365
Country:
Re: "Much to do about nothing", Racks versus snakes'wellness

Quote:
Originally Posted by minaa View Post
This may help me reconsider my thoughts on getting a small rack. Interesting.
I wouldn't, many people keep their snakes in racks. I just finished building mine, just need to wire in the flexwatt now and I'll be set.
__________________
https://www.facebook.com/KyleMillerPhotography1 & https://www.facebook.com/KylesQualityConstrictors
"We all have a common enemy and I can assure you it's nobody in this hobby." - Brian Barczyk
millertime89 is offline  
Old 12-01-11, 10:32 PM   #9
KORBIN5895
Village Idiot
 
KORBIN5895's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct-2011
Age: 39
Posts: 7,360
Country:
Re: "Much to do about nothing", Racks versus snakes'wellness

I think this is more aimed at those that use tubs that are colored where the snake has absolutely no way to see out.
__________________
I used to be a nice guy but that don't get you anywhere. So now I'm just a piece of ****, idiot,
who's too stupid to care.
KORBIN5895 is offline  
Old 12-01-11, 10:46 PM   #10
millertime89
Forum Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep-2011
Location: Overhill and underhill.
Posts: 7,365
Country:
Re: "Much to do about nothing", Racks versus snakes'wellness

don't know why anybody would do that when the clear ones are the same price.
__________________
https://www.facebook.com/KyleMillerPhotography1 & https://www.facebook.com/KylesQualityConstrictors
"We all have a common enemy and I can assure you it's nobody in this hobby." - Brian Barczyk
millertime89 is offline  
Login to remove ads
Old 12-01-11, 10:47 PM   #11
millertime89
Forum Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep-2011
Location: Overhill and underhill.
Posts: 7,365
Country:
Re: "Much to do about nothing", Racks versus snakes'wellness


here's my rack, only one snake for now. Gets tons of light and future snakes will be able to see everything.
__________________
https://www.facebook.com/KyleMillerPhotography1 & https://www.facebook.com/KylesQualityConstrictors
"We all have a common enemy and I can assure you it's nobody in this hobby." - Brian Barczyk
millertime89 is offline  
Old 12-01-11, 11:08 PM   #12
stephanbakir
Retic Fanatic
 
stephanbakir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar-2011
Age: 35
Posts: 7,119
Country:
Re: "Much to do about nothing", Racks versus snakes'wellness

While I generally use clear tubs, ALL of my breeder tubs for anything are colored, they seam to breed better in privacy.
__________________
People who know everything are often clueless.
stephanbakir is offline  
Old 12-01-11, 11:22 PM   #13
KORBIN5895
Village Idiot
 
KORBIN5895's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct-2011
Age: 39
Posts: 7,360
Country:
Re: "Much to do about nothing", Racks versus snakes'wellness

@Kyle
so what is that doll anyway?
__________________
I used to be a nice guy but that don't get you anywhere. So now I'm just a piece of ****, idiot,
who's too stupid to care.
KORBIN5895 is offline  
Old 12-01-11, 11:33 PM   #14
stephanbakir
Retic Fanatic
 
stephanbakir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar-2011
Age: 35
Posts: 7,119
Country:
Re: "Much to do about nothing", Racks versus snakes'wellness

Also, colored bins work great for snakes with eating issues, it keeps em calmer.
__________________
People who know everything are often clueless.
stephanbakir is offline  
Old 12-02-11, 08:24 AM   #15
lady_bug87
Forum Moderator
 
lady_bug87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep-2011
Location: GTA
Age: 37
Posts: 4,303
Country:
Send a message via Skype™ to lady_bug87
Re: "Much to do about nothing", Racks versus snakes'wellness

Everything I own is in glass....with screen tops and everyone is fit, healthy, poops and eats fine.. I mist once a day
__________________
Visit Reptile Enterprises on Facebook for updates on our upcoming boa projects!
lady_bug87 is offline  
Login to remove ads
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:09 AM.

Powered by vBulletin®
©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2002-2023, Hobby Solutions.

right