Venomoid Question - Page 8

Smilts · 09-05-09, 12:21 PM

I have to agree thats what it sounds like to me....

Joel La Rocque · 09-06-09, 08:20 AM

The intelligence of a snake is relevant to the person making the observation. If I look at a butchered snake and see anger and distrust, you might see sadness or some other signal being sent from the snake. One thing that is for sure in my situation: Snakes from bad homes take almost twice as long to calm and become manageable, as do snakes taken from the wild or from good homes. Something causes this and I believe it is a thinking process as well as the snakes ability to compile information and file it away.

heloderm · 09-06-09, 10:46 AM

hmmm....I haven't found that to be the truth. I think you attempt to read into these animals and make your own assumptions.

Will0W783 · 09-06-09, 02:15 PM

I would agree that, depending on the species of snake, snakes that come from "bad" households, i.e. ones that have not been handled, or have been winged around, repeatedly grabbed suddenly, or otherwise irritated and pestered, will be more aggressive than snakes that have been handled gently and calmly. I do not, however, think this has as much to do with intelligence as with simple fear conditioning. In the wild, in order to survive, an animal has to be able to associate certain events with certain outcomes, to a certain degree. A snake in the wild that approaches a larger snake or wildcat or some other predator and gets almost killed will learn not to do that. Is it a smart snake? Not necessarily; it's just being conditioned. The more something happens with the same result, the stronger the conditioning. This is what happens when you "tame" a snake. You repeatedly slowly approach it, gently lift it, and handle it, then put it back with no ill effects to the snake. It begins to associate the "big, warm, thing" with no danger, and will eventually cease to defend itself as it's learned no harm will come to it and it's a waste of energy. Likewise, a snake that is repeatedly grabbed hard, or has things waved in its face until it strikes at them, will become more aggressive, as it is constantly being presented with things and situations that aggravate its defense responses. It becomes conditioned that the "big warm things" mean stress and fear and danger- not necessarily death, but a situation that is uncomfortable for the snake. One can condition many species, even planarian flatworms can be conditioned and "taught" to swim mazes. Are they "smart"? Not necessarily, we're just manipulating their natural instinct systems. Know that your snakes do not love you, nor do they respect you, or despise you, or appreciate you, or anything other than tolerate you as they've associated you with situations that do not cause them alarm or discomfort.

MegF · 09-07-09, 05:23 AM

I agree with you Kimberly. In general I've found if I gently pick up a wild snake instead of grabbing, they rarely if ever bite. In fact I can say I've never had a wild snake bite me unless I grabbed it or was manipulating it in some way. I had a gopher snake get into one the wire cages with our Mojaves at a snake avoidance training seminar and it was partway thru the wire. I had to get it out and it objected to me forcing it out of the wire squares and bit me once. I didn't do anything so it ceased attempting to bite and I did get it out of there. Most often slow and gentle will get you no response from a snake except they either just hang out or they slowly attempt to get away.

Joel La Rocque · 09-07-09, 07:56 AM

There are only two of us here now maintaining the animals, we have one Cottonmouth that strikes at Phil every time he walks by? I can pick him up with out problem and with out the use of a hook! Spook or grab anything and it will strike but why does it strike at Phil and not me? I doubt it is scent because the tanks have fresh air pumped in and we are on the outside of the sealed top.

heloderm · 09-07-09, 01:05 PM

Joel, your still an idiot free handling venomous! And the bite count continues!

MacAdder · 11-15-09, 03:11 AM

This is an ethical debate and those without ethics or morals are those who keep or want to keep venomoids. Save a snake by killing a venomiod keeper.

Joel La Rocque · 09-08-09, 06:16 AM

Maybe, but I am one who made it and am enjoying a nice six figure retirement with a constant flow of people calling and asking to interview me, I use my real name not one and address with a profile, I visit other countries and get paid a good chunk of change for whats in my head. But if I were an insignificant nobody I would be a little green to. That is the difference between a wanna bee and a real expert. Type my name in a search engine and compare it next to yours. Go back and sit down, these people want to learn something not listen to you rave on. tell you what, I will leave if you will and that will leave this board free for those who want to get on with life! Your turn sonny.

heloderm · 09-08-09, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joel La Rocque

Maybe, but I am one who made it and am enjoying a nice six figure retirement with a constant flow of people calling and asking to interview me, I use my real name not one and address with a profile, I visit other countries and get paid a good chunk of change for whats in my head. But if I were an insignificant nobody I would be a little green to. That is the difference between a wanna bee and a real expert. Type my name in a search engine and compare it next to yours. Go back and sit down, these people want to learn something not listen to you rave on. tell you what, I will leave if you will and that will leave this board free for those who want to get on with life! Your turn sonny.

Sorry Joel, don't care for who you are or your ignorance/stupidity when dealing with venomous. I'm far younger then you and don't claim to be an expert by any means. I must be a step ahead as I have never taken a bite. You have nothing but insignifiant things to teach that will get someone hurt. Raving about being bitten almost once a year for the life of your career. I've been around the hobby for many years.....funny I have never heard of you, for that matter neither have any of my friends some of which have been around far longer then yourself. The pissing match is over, just try not to get one of these people asking for advice killed!

John

Smilts · 09-08-09, 08:39 PM

I actually did find that name alot on forums mostly like this one though.....

This has gotten beyond silly BTW!
Joels hands probly hurt from typing(what with the bites) my eyes have started to bleed from reading this crap, i cant stop though dont know why and venomoids suck BLAH BLAH BLAH!

Joel La Rocque · 09-09-09, 07:01 AM

Buu's eye!

siz · 09-09-09, 07:31 AM

This thread has gotten way off topic. Can we either get back on topic or end this thread now?

Will0W783 · 09-09-09, 08:06 PM

I agree. While the original topic of this thread is a complex, controversial and thought-provoking issue, I am quickly tiring of the "pissing contest" that has ensued. I for one have enjoyed everyone's input and opinions, although I may not agree with each and every one, I do respect everyone's right to their own opinions. I think in Joel's case, the fact that he has been working free-handling vens for some 30 years and is still alive, says something for him. If nothing else, the man's got balls. His is a unique and interesting position on reptile mentality, and while I am not fully convinced, I think we need more people who view the animals as intelligent, feeling beings and not a means to profit or a way to pick up chicks (not that anyone here does, just in general in the world). That being said, I think he should make it clear that he does not advocate the free-handling of venomous animals by the average lay keeper. His being a commercial venom extractor probably allows for him to have large quantities of antivenins on hand so he can immediately treat himself in the case of a bite. (I do hope that you don't wish to encourage anyone to free-handle vens, but if you do so yourself, it's your choice and cool that you are able to do so). Jparker, heloderm, Greg Fry, I also appreciate and have enjoyed everything you guys have said that is related to the original venomoid question and not an attack on Joel. You guys obviously know your stuff as well, and it is good to hear from people who've worked with these animals for years.
But, I beg you guys, from the bottom of my heart, PLEASE STOP WITH THE BASHING! We're all getting tired of it, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who can say that with every trash-talking post you make (Joel included) my respect for you decreases incrementally.

sassamagoo · 09-10-09, 09:50 AM

Thank you Kimberly, well said and I agree!