Snake whispering (the knack, savvy)

[Scales Zoo]

Long post, but hope you read it all, this is about the knack for handling reptiles that is developed over time.

These horses of ours are gonna teach me more about animals than any other animal. There are many ways to train a horse, but there is a guy out here known to do it well, and he's been teaching me. He gave me the Parelle tapes - which teaches predators like us, to work with prey animals. I always knew horses were different than dogs - but I could tell they were a lot different when I started daily interactions in our herd of horses - and as it grew, I watched, and tried to learn.

The 2 things I've learned to do to approach horses and have friendly horses who like me, is to walk up directly to them and in a calm way, and to "pet them with your heart, or pet them with heart in your hand" The other thing I learned was to never use gloves to pet them - and I've always disliked using gloves for reptiles (unless it boosts your confidence, than they can help - but they usually decrease your feel)

The first thing I told the horse guy is "that's how you do it with snakes"

Thinking more about this on the drive home from moving Gary's snakes at the Herpetelogical Garden - I figured I'd make a post about it.

Katt and Vanan and I have talked about these kinds of things before. I've always known some people "have the knack" for certain things and are in tune with things. You can't really teach it to someone, it comes with time. . Perelle calls it "Savvy" with horses - same thing as "the knack". Katt is good with bity snakes (sometimes) and by picking a snake up with purpose, sometimes avoids getting bit. I know I do this - and I know some people who get bit because they don't "deliberately" pick up a snake, and the snake can kind of pick up on the apprehention or nervousness. I used to "sneak" up on the horses so they wouldn't run off, but it is something a predator does to them, and you can't approach a horse as a predator. In this way, dogs are the same also - they can smell fear or apprehention.

I think snakes need to be treated like a predator animal, but also like a prey animal.

I actually delivered a snake to someone that I had just gotten from Katt, that I had not known much about. I did not know if it was tame, assumed it was (It was Katts!), and calmly and directly took it out of the pillowcase and held it without any problems. I beleive I even talked about snakes not biting when they can trust their handler, and the handler trusts the snake. Later, I heard the snake was bity and mean to the new owner, something Katt was suprised to hear too.

One dark night out fishing, Vanan and I had a deeper talk about this. We both realized, when getting a bites, that we tried to project our feelings at or to the minnow, an the hook, and base our hook sets. Trying to get in tune. Kind of like "being the ball" on caddyshack. I'm sure sportsmen of all kinds can relate to this as well.

Also, the "pet with your heart on your hand" horse thing. Cats and Dogs usually really like me, especially after I pet them. I think they can pick up on my good nature towards all animals, and I pet them with my heart. I had always hoped the horses would just pick up on that too - but they are prey animals - you have to get up to them first. Again, the same thing with the snakes. When moving the big retic or african rocks, or any snake that is a bit grumpy or has the potential to bite, I've started putting my hand on them for a few seconds, portraying nice thoughts and warm feelings. I realize I also do this to pick up wild bullsnakes without getting bit, and generally try to good thoughts and confidence to any snake I hold. I've had the nastiest monitors relax in my hands when portraying safe thoughts to them. There are also some reptiles that go beyond any good will, and will just bite you.

I have seen many levels of experience, and many levels of "the knack" - regardless of experience. Snakes don't sit as calm in the hands of non-confident people, as in the hands of confident people who really enjoy holding the snakes. This thing can't be taught or learned in books - but it is an "in tuneness" and confidence thing while holding reptiles. Kind of like getting an ear for music, it will just happen one day - you can't necessarily speed the process or try to do it.

This is by no means "news" just something I' have thought of that doesn't get talked about much. Certainly some venomous handlers are known to have this kind of "knack" - and I beleive I've developed it for large snakes - and otherwise aggressive small snakes - and it will probably get better over time.

Ryan

[varanus69]

well put ryan... as you mentioned in the post about the snake from katt i am the person for all of you who didn't know... I free handle the female fine ( but she has my undivided attention) but that male is something else fortunetly his colors make up for it and i love him..When i first got into the hobby i got my face ripped open pretty good by a boa so i myself fully respect them and don't wish a repeat of that day..I handle bigger boas and evan your 19.5 ft retic without a second thought though.. god i loved that snake..i should try your method though, it is definete food for though. and on a side note the male is always a little wilder when my wife is in the room and she thinks it can smell her fear ...maybe shes right
sorry for the babble.

[Scales Zoo]

I've been chatting with a few friends about this post - I'm suprised no one has replied - but we are all suprised more work has not been done with this. Maybe it has, and we have not heard about the studies.

How many venomous people do you know are good at martial arts. Another mind body thing that involves the "knack".

People ride horses with thoughts and minor body things. You can sit on a horse and smile, and it will go ahead. You can think about leaning back, and it will slow or go backwards - if you are in tune with the horse.

I can split and move cattle by looking at them, and concentrating at it. I've talked to a few old timer cattle guys who I've worked cattle out here about that, and they are all suprised I figured that out and can put it into words.

It is not phsycic stuff - that could be predator prey relationship things, but it works. Look where you want the cows to split, and they split right there.

One of my favorite movie when I was young was Beastmaster - he could talk to the animals, and was my hero. It is possible to talk to animals, you just need to get in tune with them. Humans have more than 5 senses, science only knows how to measure 5.

Ryan

[Tim_Cranwill]

Good post Ryan!

My buddy Ty has the knack, more so that I do anyway. I feel I do have some knack but he is definitely a head of me in that aspect. I've thought about these things too but putting it into words is tough.

I'm sure there is a lot involved and like you said, a bitey snake will just bite sometimes. There's nothing you can do about it. But there are some people who can just "beat the odds", so to speak and make a crazy snake seem calm.

[marisa]

With snakes I have negative "knack" if that's even possible. Any snake that's even POSSIBLY thinking of biting, bites me once I hold it usually it seems. I do feel nervous holding snakes still even after five years of owning them. Just one of those things I guess.

But I DO seem to have the "knack" with Green Iguanas of all things. I don't particularly even like them, but owned one for five years with ease in regards to behaviour. I could calm her down or seem to make her aggitated by modifying my OWN attitude...as in she might be out walking around the living room and look a bit nervous and flighty...so I could easily make a mental effort to relax and she would as well...obviously picking up on my moods but the same thing you are talking about really.

My roomates now have a young aggressive male. He violently bites and attacks but I have been able to pet him and have interaction with him fairly easily although he is still almost 100% unpredictable and angry with everyone else. I have a hand gesture that has worked with every iguana I have encountered to calm them down for a scratch on the neck. It might be that MY feelings/mental state changes when I make this gesture and they pick up on it, or it might just be a universal calming movement. But it works.

Marisa

[Golden_Lotus]

Interresting post Ryan,

For my part, I kept my reserv about that. I believe that there is many factors that are too subtiles and we don't realize the impact. Just in your exemple, when you take the snake with a little bit of aggresssiveness in you. I believe, the rapidity of movement is enough to put the snake on the defensive but since you are not hurting it, it react will movement to flee and not a bitting reaction.

I believe also that snake can recognise a person. Maybe by odor or by way of moving it.

I believe also that when we manipulate animals a lot, we succede in making them at ease. It take me some time to unserstand with my first reptile, a water dragon, that the only thing I need to do is put a finger on the bone of the chest to calm it. With manipulation, I know when one of my snake will try to bite. In the beginning, my snakes always **** on me. Now it never happened. Because I change my way of manipulation, never give them a pause for the tail to be near a corner and ''relax''.

It is many subtiles details and we don't see them all.

[Invictus]

Excellent post Ryan. I'm not sure if I have the knack or not. I know I'm more nervous with smaller snakes that are harder to predict and can easily get away than I am with larger ones. I know I'm very confident with boa constrictors, and they seem to be very calm with me. The ones I'm learning from the most are my Papuan pythons though - not only do they have teeth like a retic, but mine (being young and wild caught) are SO unpredictable it's just unbelievable. Even my youngest one, Lucifer, has days where you open his cage and he will come right to you - but most days, he'd rather take your face off. The largest female I have (9 feet plus) is teaching me respect for giant snakes. Ther best part is though, these guys are at least as 'smart', if not moreso, than Indigos. They seem to have this cunning to them that makes you think they are watching your every move, and if you screw up, you bleed. It's an amazing species, and I have been free handling them more (and by this I mean without gloves) to build up my confidence, and in some cases, my pain tolerance. Maybe I have a natural knack with some species, but maybe these pythons will give me "the knack" that I'm missing.

Anyway, great post.

[kpugh]

Interesting...for some reason I've never thought about reptile savvy before...dogs, horses, even rodents, sure...but reptiles? Now that you bring it up I can see it, but for some reason had never thought about it before. I have negative knack with Igs, but am pretty good with snakes and most other creatures. I think it really does boil down to attitude and mind set - have you ever noticed that flighty people, even when they are calm on the outside and do all the right things outwardly, tend to have more troubles? Very interesting food for thought....

[tonyj]

Ryan, I think you have come very close to helping many of us to understand why animals behave in certain ways, and how to predict possible reactions to our actions when dealing with or approaching those animals.

Your post may not have initially received the number of replies it deserves, partly because it is one of those rare posts that at least for my own part, made me think. Consequently I began compare my own experiences with some of the scenarios that you had outlined.

I am sure that the initial approach to any animal and the method of that approach is a critical factor in what kind of response is to expect in return.

Certainly fear, hesitation and a lack of confidence by human intervention is picked up and processed by the animal, in our case often a reptile, and the response can, in a high precentage of cases, be reasonably predictable.

I have seen my eight year old grandson interact with all kinds of snakes and tarantulas, even those he had never previously handled, without the slightest hint that he was going to be bitten.

He has handled young fiesty JCPs, young boas, and some larger versions of the same, plus a multitude of spiders without any fear or thought of being bitten.

The key here is that he doesn't think that he will be bitten,he doesn't expect to be bitten and he genuinly cares about the creature he is dealing with. Most importantly he is not afraid of the animal and handles them gently but positively.

This attitude extends to dogs, cats, rabbits, or whatever he comes across.

We have discouraged him from trying to locate the Cougar that was seen at the back of their home recently!

Recently we caught a rather large and skittish lop eared domestic rabbit that was running wild in our neighbourhood. It proved somewhat difficult to catch, but eventually we managed to trap it before the really cold nights set in.

It proved to be quite the handful, all claws and teeth, and as we were unable to find out who owned it, we were at a loss as to what to do with it.

Snake food was not an option, I was told.

Anyway, to cut a long story short , Thomas my youngest grandson was able to calm it, by talking to it, touching and stroking it, and then holding it.

This became the start of yet another great boy and animal relationship. Both are now living happily in Canmore along with his dogs, cats, tarantulas, rosy boas and domesticated pet ducks.

As an adult, I too have had to overcome what seems to be a natural hesitancy in dealing with some tarantulas and snakes, however I firmly believe that Ryan's 'snake whispering' theories are based on solid evidence and can be a valuable skill to aquire.

Contrary to what I have read recently, I believe that snakes are just a little smarter than houseplants and will respond to positive stimuli. Not always unfortunately, but that is one of the reasons that snakes are so fascinating.

My Argentine boas are following the plan right now and are proving that contrary to popular belief are capable of behaving like pussy cats. So far, so good.

Now if someone could help me get over my fear of frogs!

Good post Ryan.

[joey]

Excellent post! Thank you for your thoughts--I agree wholeheartedly. There is so much to the energy we all put out and even the thoughts we have can affect everything around us and our own bodies. The creatures around us are so incredibly receptive to everything---so much more in tune than us--we are learning. Thank you, Ryan...

[Scales Zoo]

I'm glad to see so many good replies.

I have been thinking about this more, and also self analyzing all my friends and how they deal with reptiles. Lots of interesting observations over the years I have ignored, but will pay more attention to.

3 quick things

I, and a lot of other people, talk to our snakes, many times like we'd talk to little kids. We know they don't have ears, but a lot of long timer types I know talk to them. Not all of these people don't get bit - experience doesn't necessarily mean you have confidence either, sometimes bad experiences decrease convidence. I know of a few "snake wuss'" that get bit for this, some with 25 years experience.

Up until about 3 years ago, when anyone asked how many times I have been bit, I was able to say twice. Given the amount and kinds of reptiles we maintain, everyone was really suprised to hear that. Then, possibly I got over cocky - and got bit 9 times in 1 week. I've mostly only been bit by baby snakes - but I don't think they have had the chance to develop a resistance to bite, and they are way more prone to bite for no reason. This is true for rattlesnake, and the amount of times they inject venom compared to adults, which give dry bites most of the time.

I got bit by our female anaconda when it was about a year old. It really really hurt, was very unexpected and repeated bites from the side (which was new to me, all out pythons strike to the front). I've been bit by this snake 3 times - and don't free handle it any more. Walter always enjoyed the fact he could hold it without getting bit, and rubbed it in my face many times. I know Rob Mcrobbie held it without getting bit, a few times (another guy with great in-tuness to his reptiles) Now the snake is Gary's, and I've got lots of pictures of him holding it without getting bit. I'd like to try picking it up again, to see if I get bit.

Ryan

[greenman1867]

I suspect baby snakes bite more for the same reason tiny dogs do, fear. I own (or I am owned by) 2 great danes, and I never worry about them biting, although I have no children and they are not really exposed to children, they are great with them. I explain to fearful parents that if the kid lays on my dane, it is nothing to the dog, but if a kid lays on a yorkie, it will hurt the little fella. So it is more prone to bite out of fear and self preservation.

As for snakes and most other animals, I do think fear plays a huge part. I am not afraid of animals therefore they respect (if thats possible) me as much as I respect them. Most animals seem to have the ability to "smell fear" or sense it some how.

Great post

And I have not been bitten by anything other then my rats...........so far

[HeatherRose]

Really great post Ryan...

I found I had a deep connection with the horse I kept and trained a long, long time ago. When riding you think about doing something, and then you're doing it. I could never go over 4 foot jumps on any animal I didn't trust whole heartedly...

My horse (halflinger x quarterhorse mix) had been abused quite badly by the owners who owned him before the woman who sold him to me, and therefore required a lot of work and handling... eventually, I was the only person he would tolerate on him. I went away for a week and found out that the barn I leased him to had used him against my wishes in a kiddie camp program and that he wouldn't cooperate and even threw one of the kids.

There was nothing like walking into the barn and having him stick his head out of his stall and get excited and anxious to be taken out. I had more of a 'buddy' relationship with my horse as opposed to a much more respectful (not to say I wasn't respectful of my horse, I was thrown and stomped on enough times to keep it in check) relationship with snakes.

I find that for me, my reptiles are a bit different...they are much more difficult to read, and I've found it's taken me much more time to become relaxed and confident in handling my snakes.

Cool discussion.

[bcbob]

Well, I have NO experience with the "knack" for reptiles, as I don't have ANY yet, still learning. But I've been training and educating dogs for 25 yrs.

Horses and dogs are social and "pack" creatures, moreso than prey or predator (sorry, Tony, no offense to you or your horse handler's theories) in terms of understanding the "knack". They also share a similar level of intelligence and reaction to conditioning. They also have the ability to form strong bonds and actually display abstract thought sometimes, even with an understanding of OUR language. They are capable of a "vocabulary". Additionally, they are fine tuned to observe body language, sounds, better than any of us humans.

I'm not so sure that reptiles have those same capacities, so it follows, to me, that comparisons with horse "whisperers", and reptile "whisperers" contain entirely different elements.

Rather than "prey or predator", with horses and dogs, I personally believe that ATTITUDE is the key element. The attitude has to display many of the features you mentioned you YOURSELF had. However, you failed to mention the most important one, imo, and that is RESPECT. These animals are "masters of observation", bar none, and will "see" respect beyond anything FIRST. (They are accurate 'lie detectors') They will judge you almost instantly. That is why kids are sometimes the greatest dog trainers without even knowing why.

I know LOTS of folks who "pet with their heart" and the dog or horse won't give them the time of day. Cause there's NO respect there. Am I crazy? Maybe.

Now as for reptiles? YOU'RE gonna have to tell me what, why and how lol!

Having said that, I think even with reptiles, it would have to be attitude and confidence. And as you said, this comes also with good handling experience.

Great topic, Tony.

Off the soapbox now.

[Scales Zoo]

Agree with the respect thing, I didn't use the word, but I meant similar things.

The one thing I found out when we got horses, was how unlike dogs they were. Some things people do with dogs, are not appreciated by horses, like patting, and rough play. Most horse people know this like I know dogs, but I was completely ignorant to horses - which made learning from scratch really interesting.

Not all people who pet with their heart are going to win over the horse, if their heart is not good or warm. Some people hearts are better than others (respect for animals you could say). I think dogs and horses and snakes and other wild animals can tell the good people from the not so good - animals are a better judge of character than people are, I've been saying that for years.

Ryan