what a life a tortoise has.....

[beth wallbank]

Isn't this pathetic.....lazy things. Don't you wish all you had to do all day is eat, sleep, and *****?

[Linds]

Too cute

[sSNAKESs.com]

lol and age like a fine wine!! HEHE

[Chris R]

It is very unfortunate that way too many "hobbyists" feel they have somehow "saved" an animal by sticking it in a wooden box on newspaper substate for their amusement. Have you given them any other option but to eat, sleep and s**t? A comment like that shows no respect for the natural world or what should be the goal of every reptile keeper. Russian tortoises have very specific captive husbandry requirements which are very hard for an average herp collector to meet. Some are only active for a few months of the year. Please try not to EVER forget how these animals ended up in your collection. Thousands upon thousands of Russians(I think the total CITES quota for year 2000 was in the neighborhood of 50,000 or so) are plucked from the wild each year. Many do not reach their intended destinations in North America and Europe alive. Many more die after arrival because of the deplorable conditions in which they are kept in warehouses while awaiting being sold to pet stores and then on to the consumer(In this case, you). About 10 Russian tortoises die for every one that arrives in a collectors home. I see 4 wild-caught Russians in your photo...that means that you are responsible for the deaths of 40 more...40! the numbers are staggering and the sad truth is that because Russians are cheap to import, sell for a cheap price and are difficult to breed, it will always expose them to the wild-caught animal trade in the same manner as Ball pythons and Savannah monitors. Uzbekizstan, Kazikstan and Turkmenizstan are the current countries being raped of their Russian tortoises among other reptiles. It is no coincidence that these are poverty stricken third-world countries. Can you blame the native trying to feed his family or the demand in which we have created?
Please be aware of these points if anything, and if you read this, you now are,

Chris R

[marisa]

I think you really jumped the gun on that post.

marisa

[dippy]

Huh...

[Chris R]

The truth hurts

[TonyL]

Chris R.

Just some thoughts.....

Some very enlightening and interesting points. However I think the post should of been placed in a thread on it's own. To jump on a person who has simply posted a simple picture without knowing anything about the person, their setup, their situation or for that matter anything at all is simply a rude thing to do!

I think that all opinions and facts should be heard however the appropriate time and place is important and this was simply not it.
You may want to set up this as an individual thread where it can illicit some conversation and other viewpoints.

[Katt]

I can understand Chris's enthusiasm for protecting tortoise species, a noble cause, I agree that you did jump the gun there Chris.

You don't really know Beth's set up, aside from that pic. She's not the one who plucked and raped these tortoises either, but at least she's got them and trying to breed them. I think that's a pretty noble thing as well.

Take a deep breath, there's a better way to forward your feelings without offending anyone and getting folkz to back away as opposed to listening.

[anothermonkey]

A few points to consider:

1. Beth may or may not take great care of her herps, I don't know that one way or the other, so while I won't attack her, I'm also not going to give her too much credit without knowing what she does or doesn't do.

2. If that actually is the tortoise home in the pic, then there is one glaring husbandry error. Newspaper is not a suitable substrate for these animals. Just as tree pythons and chameleons need branches, Russian torts need a sand/soil mix at least 12" deep because they've evolved to be burrowing animals. Without digging available, their instincts are frustrated and they are indeed, "pathetic".

3. For the sake of argument, let's say Beth's herp care is almost impeccable. An off the cuff post like hers that started this thread, could still give a newer, younger herper the wrong idea, so the post is at least inaccurate, and at worst, somewhat irresponsible. A little more reverence for the wild animals that wind up in our hands may be in order.

4. Beth did not kill 40 Russian torts. But nonetheless, that is the result of the wild animal trade through which, however directly or indirectly, she wound up with those animals. That's just a fact, not an accusation.

5. While breeding such animals in captivity may eventually supply the hobbyist market with more pets (maybe) it's not going to do anything to save wild populations from the combined pressures of habitat destruction, environmental pollution, and collecting for the trade. Once in captivity, these animals are ecologically "dead".

I thought Chris R was a little harsh, but maybe he's just sick of people's attitude in general to these animals. I don't think he was rude. Better to respond to such posts with facts and information instead of telling people to play nice when they say something you don't like, or maybe don't want to hear.

And make no mistake, animals in captivity are generally being exploited for our pleasure, just like the meat we eat and the leather we wear, and the medications we derive and test....etc. etc. Be realistic about your relation to the natural world. As a species we exploit it, it's what we do. The trick is to do it responsibly, keep it intact for future generations to exploit. There's nothing inherently wrong with keeping and breeding tortoises as pets, but there's nothing noble there either. If you want to be noble, save their habitat and leave them in it.

[Tim_Cranwill]

All the comments and advice are well intended, I think. But there is a better way to "educate". Jumping down someone's throat doesn't elicit an open ear. It is clear that you are passionate and knowledgeable about what you are speaking of. But maybe some of your comments were not exactly warranted.

Beth didn't "special order" these animals from the poachers, and she certainly didn't order the deaths of ten other tortoises for each one she does own. It is a likely fact that they were exported, but at least she will do her best to keep them in a caring and responsible way. And I'm sure she is open to any friendly advice.

If you notice something isn't right in the picture above, please comment, but do it in a civil and mature way without trying to "offend the offender". That is the type of community we are trying to maintain here.

Thanks.

[marisa]

If I posted a picture of my beloved iguana Roxy, sitting on my living room couch say, and included a comment about how lazy iguanas are that certainly doesn't mean she doesn't have an outstanding enclosure, and it certainly doesn't mean I think iguanas are lazy creatures who do nothing else. Andit doesnt mean I don't care for her right.

And I highly doubt it would cause a newbie iguana owner to suddenly believe it's alright to house their iguana on the couch full time. And I don't think it would warrant someone to suddenly rip into me about how iguanas are treated in captivity.

I just thought you jumped the gun because with two minutes of searching you could find other posts by Beth that show her commitment to animals and pictures of her other beautiful herps. I highly doubt her leos are treated so wonderfully, yet these torties are treated like garbage. That's all. I just thought it was rash, and a post that was posted without thinking first seeing as she posted it obviously to be a cute photo breaking from the normal husbandry questions on the forum.

marisa

[marisa]

I believe everyone made some wonderful points and used a thoughtful manner when posting.

Marisa

[beth wallbank]

Well, seems a simply amusing picture to some has gotten some people's short in knots. I have owned and BRED russian torts, box turtles, and various species for 15+ years now, and still in fact own my originals. Along with owning and PROPERLY caring for 120+ leopard geckos, 25+ cresteds, 25+ ball pythons, various coulbrids, chameleons, torts, dogs, cats and a family.
To let Chris know a bit about HOW I keep my animals, and the care and time I DO put into them, I have enclosed a few pics of my RUSSIAN tortoises play yard outside in my yard. As you can see, they have shade trees, sand/soil to dig in, herbs and grasses to eat, fruit growing and plenty of hides. THIS is thier home. Just to remind you, it is now NOVEMBER and a tad cold outside for the torts, and yes they do stay in a wooden playpen for the three months that it is pouring rain here in BC, but thier INDOOR enclosure is 4' x 4' for four torts, and they DO have hides, and dirt. They were in thier feeding box with the picture. I DON"T feed them directly where they defecate, so I use newspaper.
If the picture of the lazy tortoise did not please you at all, I DO have an email and a telephone.

[beth wallbank]

as you can see in the foreground, the torts are secured with a 4' wooden fence, with 1' chicken mess into the ground underneath.
The enclosure is 20' x 25' and holds 10 torts.