Cross breeding

meow_mix450 · 07-14-04, 12:18 PM

Hey

I was wondering what you guys think of these guys
http://www.calumma.com/panther_crosses.htm
The are crossing different types of panther, i think there O.K.

In one of the threads there a a pic of collides nosy be so i thought it could be a cross

Meow

thunder · 07-14-04, 12:39 PM

yeah, i remember that picture, and i also thought that it might not be pure nosy be. however, i am the first to admit that i do not have much knowledge in this area.

i have seen animals produced by the Kamms in person, and they are truly fantastic, some of the most beautiful reptiles of any kind that i have ever seen. they are also very knowledgable people, and i think that they represent all of their hybrids fairly. i believe that hybridization is ethical, provided that animals are represented honestly and are never released into the wild.

Collide · 07-14-04, 02:57 PM

I think crossing is fine but if possible should be pure if u can keping in mind that the buyer of the babies should always be aware that the babies are mix. Honestly im trying to find a nosey be for mine but any female will do as my am is not to make money off the babies but its to have soem of his kids cuz its the only way i will never loose him. so yea ithink it is fine if every one is educated. But i do think it is very important to preserv the blood lines at the same time. lol i quess i dont know what i beleave.

meow_mix450 · 07-14-04, 04:41 PM

lol haha i sorta like cross bred chameleons there colours are amazing! But ya we should keep some with the same blood line and as pure as possible. Same i dont really care about the money right now i just want to have this experience that not many people can really have. Able to feel your first clutch of eggs hatch sucessfully is really soemthing, i cant wait till mine hatchs, i wont be able to sleep.

Meow

DragnDrop · 07-14-04, 07:21 PM

An awful lot of crosses are infertile. If you're planning on breeding your fantastic crossbred cham, check out the fertility angle.

Collide · 07-14-04, 07:37 PM

I wouldent agree with crosses beign infirtal is is all the same species of cham jsut different color morphs. just my opinion

DragnDrop · 07-14-04, 07:46 PM

If you do some searching on adcham, Chameleon Journal and a few other good archives, you'll find discussions about crosses and infertility. It's well known that female panthers from different locales look very similar. If your male and female are from different areas, you stand a good chance of infertile eggs. It's important to get the right locality for the females, as hard as they are to ID. Males, with all their colouration are easy to ID, it's the females that are painfully difficult.

Collide · 07-14-04, 08:02 PM

Ok did soem reading asked some questions of friends, your right there is some truth to this sorry i was wrong. its a good debate though, soem thoughts.

do u think locals that are firther away from each other are less likly to be firtal?

bla lol interesting topic now lol.

DragnDrop · 07-14-04, 08:14 PM

Take Panthers... the ones that meet in the wild can hybridize and most likely produce fertile offspring. If you introduce one from way the heck over on the other side of the island, chances are they're too different to produce fertile offspring. Close neighbours give better odds. They've probably already interbred to produce a specific locale cham.

dank7oo · 07-15-04, 07:36 AM

My take is that as long as they are being sold as crosses and not as a pure locale, there is no harm in a breeder selling a cross.

Jason

panther_dude · 07-15-04, 08:32 AM

Ya sure cross breeding is cool, but in my opinion we should keep the blood lines pure. There arent enough of the pure blood lines in the market yet. It still takes people a couple of months to find the chameleons they want. Also some people will not properly represent that they are not of pure blood lines causing further problemes. Exspecially with people trying to get a track record of all the blood lines in north america. I think theyre are also many others strongly oppossed to cross breeding.

Plus we really dont know the long term affects as to the health of the animals being cross bred. Ive heard many of the younge do not survive, and most are infertile. So ive heard.

wade

DragnDrop · 07-15-04, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by dank7oo
My take is that as long as they are being sold as crosses and not as a pure locale, there is no harm in a breeder selling a cross.

Jason

So assume you cross breed your chams and sell them with all the info including what morphs you crossed. You openly sell them as crosses. Your customer breeds those chams and sells them as "X-morph" ... but doesn't mention they aren't pure. His customer now goes on to breed them, thinking they're 'pure', no more mention of crosses. Then what? Is it still okay to cross them with full disclaimer of them being crosses? Can you guarantee that all future generations will be labled properly?

Chams are threatened in the wild. One way of keeping the species alive it to breed PURE strains and morphs. Making mutts isn't going to help much. It will keep the species alive, but that's about it. I suppose alive beats extinct. But it also makes any attempt to re-introduce them in the wild (if it ever gets to that) quite useless.

mettle · 07-15-04, 09:56 AM

Well... If you have this cross breed, it's not really keeping the species alive is it? And the animal still can become extinct.

If all the German Shephards in the wolrd died, but there were still German Shephard/Lab crosses, I don't think it'd be far fetched to say that the pure German Shephard bloodline is extinct.

All you have is a glimmer of what was...

It seems a lot of crosses are made to produce stunning colors, etc. Which means generally for monetary gain. People are attracted to shiny, pretty things. When they see a bright orange cham with turqoise banding, they nearly faint. And if you're not cross breeding to produce something visually stunning, but rather, cross breeding for no reason at all... Then why bother? There's no point to it.

Just my thoughts on the issue.

HeatherRose · 07-15-04, 10:16 AM

I agree with Hilde. While breeding crossed chameleon locales, the buyers should be aware of the bloodlines. But even when hatchlings are sold off, while though the buyer may have complete knowledge of their lineage, there's no telling what can happen down the road.

IF ever it does get to the point where chams are being bred and re-introduced into the wild, it is so important that the natural bloodlines are preserved. If we have pretty, yet infertile chameleons breeding in the wild and not producing, then its pointless to expect them to actually rebuild themselves in the wild.
While some of the cross-bred chams are positively stunning, in my opinion its not worth it, as pure locales are becoming harder to find.

K1LOS · 07-15-04, 11:51 AM

A breeder can't be held responsible for what what the purchaser does with his offspring. If the original offspring is labeled correctly, thats all you can do about it.

I do however feel that we need to guarantee plenty of pure bloodlines to sustain the individual locales. WIth that said, what about a 50/50 rule for mutt breeders. Every mix you produce, you must produce a pure. Now, realistically nobody would ever f0llow the rules, but that would keep everyone happy wouldn't it?

Does anybody actually have a pedigree for their cham anyways? guess what, there is probably lots of mixes in our own collections and we don't even know.Just a thought.

Geoff