Do you have the ability to care for a 6+ feet Varanids…?

[Steeve B]

YES...sorry!

[V.hb]

Do you have any documentation? i'd love to read it..

[markb]

Hi Steve, and All others,

This is a very interesting posting, and I have read it a few times - it has merit, but husbandry in the lower 48 states is a matter dealt with at local, county and state levels, in addition to federal laws guiding what can and cannot be imported/exported into USA. We all know many of these laws are a blanket law, and when something happens, such as when a boy is strangled by his pet boa constrictor, the laws are changed, ammended, etc...
The laws are set down usually as a reactionary response to some attention made to this reptiles, dogs, cats, ect that some (often stupid) politician has little knowledge of, and drafts/writes an ordinance into law - The library of Congress was originally designed to help ALL politicians gain the proper knowledge they required on any topic before making their political decisions - but now it all graft, greed and more greed....and it merges into the reptile pet trade like all of business'. (Yes, I despise politicians).

For people, who choose to buy a monitor, it is almost the same scenario, a reactionary response to something they saw on television, Mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom, Survival, Wild Wild World of Animals, Crocodile Hunter, Mark O'Shea's Adventures, Jeff Corwin's Experiences, etc...or perhaps from a National Geographic or book on Australia....they see these majestic lizards and go out and buy one, two or three of them on a whimm, and often impulse....this is natural human behavior...for many they go to the internet and find out how to take care of it, for others, they do more homework, buy a few books, ask questions of forums, etc...and take on the new life living with varanids. Others, want to know everything about them, in the wild and in captivity via other keepers, and really "get into it" as it were....where most of us are now -

For beginners it may seem overwhelming when they ask a question and I post numerous references/listings, but in doing so it gives them 1) a source to start with, 2) an idea of whats going on regarding that topic, and 3) someone out there can help them get more more to compare and contrast information of wild/captive varanids....which sometimes instills in them to read more, and watch more more often of their animals and themselves too.

Those persons who purchase high dollar reptiles, dogs, (big-)cats, cars, etc...generally are very serious about the animals they keep and wish to learn and know as much as possible about said animal - and know the parameters of these animals and their abilities - like the boy scout motto - "be Prepared" and many advanced varanophiles go this route - learning more and more about their animals and comparing them to other varanids. We know some varanids do not do so well in captivity, some snakes, some lizards (crocodile lizards), but if there is success in keeping them, one can progress to breeding, longevity and so on with the animals in their care; some varanids do not "calm" down for long periods of time, years, and then one day they begin to become less wary of your presence, and then you are merely treated as a old log in their terraria, just another piece of the decor - but one they react with everyday, even if it is just sensing your feet steps meters sway out of eye-shot of you, but they know you are coming, and when you have that paper bag full of food, look out!

The varanids adapt to their captive environment as much as we do to their presence, and in time, whether it takes years, which it did with a male V. exanthematicus I had, they will begin to ignore you, except on the clock-time feeding time, and cleaning time when they watch your every move to see if you uncover some misbegotten food morcel, etc...both adapt, and in time, both keeper and kept let their guard a little (which is when 'accidents' often happen) and the keeper and kept live on a level of mutual benefit to one another and live accordingly. Obviously it is always the human who must take the greater part of the responsibility for the kept and keep conditons optimal - for reasons too numerous to say here, many keepers may become bored, life problems, etc...and the reptile may take a second or third seat rather than a first when optimal care is required....and carelessness increases, sometimes resulting in death of the animal, escape of the animal, and so on....to me observing varanids, keepers and so on for nearly 25 years now, it seems very consistant, and almost predictable....Im not a mathematician so don't hold me to latter statement!

If people are truly caring of the animals in their care, and I think most are, they can have larger varanids, including V. varius, V. salvator, V. niloticus, and so on, as long as they are responsible, careful, and don't take chances, i.e. hand feeding your varanid etc....this can be good for both parties there-of. I know many keepers who had had a few varanids then leaped to the BIG varanids, V. salvator with no problems what-so-ever, to this day they have large animals, and no problems and all are healthy. I think it has alot to do with the "Passion" one has for these animals, and this passion can carry you a long ways...and have a terrific experience with big and small varanids.

Not ALL people want to breed them, and is not in my opinion a signature of success - its nature's way of course, to pass on the good chromosomes - but in captivity other factors also enhance a quality of life for a captive - enhancement of their surroundings, which encourages behaviors such as hunting, foraging, seek and destroy (for food), thermoregulating, social interactions (for more social-based varanids), etc...watching a V. exanthematicus flip on its back and bite its rear leg in response to the V. salvator in a cage meters away is cool to see; to see V. albigularis rear on hind legs and arching their neck in swan-curve appearance in response to placing a road-kill venomace DOA/DOR roadkill into their terraria for food is a kick in the pants, to watch ritualized combat behavior where the female V. bengalensis is pushing the much larger male over onto his back at 03:00 am is a blast; to watch baby V. exanthematicus engage in combat behavior, courtship behavior is wonderful - seeing these things and more are further delights to the deposion of eggs and pipping of eggs, and I hope all of you see these and others unique behaviors in your monitors too - its amazing, and it gives their lives more to life than just living in a box....

We all know that most reptiles in the pet trade die off soon after arrival, and the 'apparent' healthy ones were not kept in horrific conditions long enough to severely affect their physiology, compared to those that die off soon after arrival, and more-so during transport. Stress kills.

I hope you continue your projects of breeding V. varius, V. ornatus, V. niloticus, etc Steve, and of course, If I can help further, Im there for you...you know how to find me....

Cheers,
markb

[Steeve B]

http://www.smuggled.com/goabur1.htm

I have about 4000 pages on animal trade and traffic alone,
I don’t wish to share these information, why shod I? This has nothing to do with my thread; however you can find some information from the above link.
Rgds

Ps. my reply to Jon was not to be inflammatory; it was merely to show my point
(Varanids education isn’t all that’s needed for future Big Varanids owners; they also need social and legal advising.)

[V.hb]

Thanks Steve.. I believe what you are saying, I just wanted to read more on it.. No need for anymore than that. Thanks.

[TK2]

Steve B wrote -
( I have about 4000 pages on animal trade and traffic alone,
I don’t wish to share these information, why shod I? )

Just a thought, but to help people not to do things illegally by mistake ? And, just curious, why not share it ?

[Steeve B]

Peoples doing illegal things is not my problem, if a friend ask my advising I will give him, 50% of my varanids research I keep to myself, because I consider it useless to hobbyist and some material I don’t post because it will only create more demand for varanids. Haven’t you noticed I deleted all photos that created demands, do you think I who’d do this if I was in for the$$. As I said many times before, aim very happy my third neighbour keeps leopard geckos and others ball pythons, I have no desire too see varanids on every corner, so I don’t promote them, I only share experience and try to help in there husbandry a little.
Don’t you think I already share enough? Why shod I do more? I already gave more then anyone on the net.

Rgds

[markb]

Hi TK2,

I have noticved that when you say, "Here is some information" and its free, they want more, always....but when you say, here is some information, and you have to pay the s/h costs, 50%-60% you never hear from again....everyone wants it for nothing, and those serious, you find out their passion is as genuine as their words and will pay a little bit for your xeroxing, postage, envelopes, gas, time etc....to those people, I have no problems with, for the others, it gets tiring throwing valuable time after time after time....and unlike the US government which seems to have an endless pit of money to throw at needless/wasteful projects, I cannot do this....its not worth it...we must choose to help those we can, and will (hopefully) get something back in exchange - I get information and some of it very interesting, and share with others too, but one must choose their battles, and can only do so much to help out, if and when they can....I for one have limited my time and energy to this, as the feedback has decreased significantly, and only help those persons who really are in need, or stuck, and if I can, I help them all I can, along witrh a core group of varanophiles who have only to ask and I will do anything they ask of me ..... some good friendships there....and that makes this stuff alot more fun....and as for the jackasses, well, they give the World gas, and cause the Coreolis Effect to spin faster....at least they're contributing something!

cheers,
markb

[TK2]

Hi Mark B.

Of course if you only have hard copy it makes it a lot more difficult and time consuming to help, and no one is obligated to help. I don't really get the US analogy but it doesn't matter as I agree most governments are wastefull.
At some point in time you would be repeating yourself and I can see it getting tiring. This is why I copy my responses, research material and studies to make up introductory information in areas where I try to help people. Not saying you have to but it makes it easier to help more often, less time consuming and doesn't get tiring then. I save these as different WORD documents so they are easy to email to people.
At the point you are at with your reptiles your right, you won't get as much back from a lot of people because they don't know as much and can't contribute as much or at all, yet.
And yes time is precious and I agree you must choose where you can and want to help the most.

Thanks for the reply,

TK2

[TK2]

Hi Steve,

If your above post was to me I don't understand the post so we can just let it slide. If the post wasn't for me ignore this response.

TK2

[markb]

TK2,
thats is a good idea about making word documents and stuff - I had not thought of that before! I will give this some thought. Boy, I like this forum!!

I hope I did not sound like an elitist or something, its just my time and energy are not my own nowadays, and when I have energy, I have to use it very judgementally.

I have finished a comprehensive Varanid bibliography, by author, on Varanus, heloderma, Lanthanotus, and these animals in Films (~150 pages w/some very "special" photos) too that I submitted for publication.

Thanks TK2!
mark

[Steeve B]

Obviously that’s the problem we have you don’t understand everything I write; I wish I could be more clear to you. Perhaps someday?
Rgds

[ectotherm]

Excellent topic Steve.
I shudder to think how this thread might play out on the "other" varanid forum. Even the disagreements here are at least civil.

I think most folks here would agree that the majority of individuals coming into the reptile hobby, who obtain potentially large monitors are virtually incapable of meeting their needs. If they are even aware of what those needs may be. The other sad but fundamental truth is; most of those hatchling niloticus, salvator, and exanthematicus that find themselves with new owners and housed in 40 gallon aquariums with a heat rock - will never achieve their potential adult size. They simply won't survive that long.

I've pointed out before that I do not currently own any varanids. Permits are required to own them legally. I do not currently have the permits, or means at my disposal to care for large monitors. (Although I am scheming). I can also tell you that many people in my state do own them - illegally.
I do think there is tremendous value in varanophiles maintaining and continuing to breed the larger species. If the need or motivation to breed them is for commercial purposes this is where things begin to break down into the scenario you have laid out. People obtaining potentially large and perhaps dangerous (in the case of salvadorii) animals, that are not equipped or prepared to deal with the adult form of that "cute little lizard" they take home. On another note, it must be somewhat frustrating from the breeders point of view to have succeeded in producing captive born stock - only to know that your successes are going out the door to someone who is likely incapable of properly caring for the animal.

Regardless of the species you choose to continue to work with, by all means, continue your work.

Regards,

Don M.

[V.hb]

Don, you're not the only one whos noticed how hostile varanid forums are.... whats with that??

[TK2]

Hi V.hb

I think a lot of the problem with the hostility is the communication form, typing back and forth. Makes it hard sometimes to be understood correctly when there is no inflection or tone like when you are speaking. People get the wrong impression, interpret something the wrong way or not the way it was intended.