For Mark, about the rudicollis

[Dragoon]

Hey,
Thought I'd start a new thread, as it's on my favorite subject!

Isn't 5 feet quite large for a female? If you don't mind my asking, did you receive eggs from her to confirm it was a female? My rudis are all dissimilar as far as head and body shape goes. Did you try pairing up your rudi? 8 years is a long time to care for an animal that hates you, wow. You have perseverance. Thanks for the chasing birds story. I love hearing things other rudis do. Any more?
I've been dying to ask you about this monitor for a while now! haha

How on earth did you get her out of the tree, when you wanted to go back inside? I can barely get mine unhooked from carpet when I want to pick them up. They have the neat habit of hooking their paws on any nearby object to avoid being lifted. Mine don't hate me or are afraid of me, they are just velcro-lizards. Once I have them, they are then stuck to me, they cling to whatever they touch.

Thanks for the tip about university libraries. I never tried here, because I know you can't use them without being enrolled. But I will ask them if I'm allowed to go and photocopy without removing the materials.
Cheers. D.

[markb]

Hi D.,
I knew she was female from her skin and bones appearance when she arrived the first day - she was death camp material when she arrived from a friend of mine who thought I was the only one who could save her, and I did - he got for $10 back east, shipped her samew day to me and 8 years later she faded away one day. She never laid eggs, but I did dissect her hemiclitorii section to see what those looked like, and have some lousy pics of them somewhere.

I put her in the pear tree every saturday when they sun was out, and yes she always tried to bite me, tail lash and claw me to death, but only got me once when she dropped down on my back, I got up, and she realized I was that "thing" and bit me good in my back...I deserved it. Otherwise, I coaxed her out with hissing cockroaches on tongs and she would follow the food out of the tree where I could grab her and put her inside. Easy. I always rewarded her with food afterwards, like they do as marine shows for whales and dolphins...to enforce the activity with food. She was 5'1" when she passed away, but that is not the record size; I think my article I sent you has size records in it?? Right now, I don't remember their size record. I never could find a male near her size, and she was to say the least, nasty disposition to all, especially me, which never bothered me abit. I cleaned her cage while she was in bathtub which she enjoyed alot. Thank goodness her 71 teeth only got me one time! Most of her life she was in the wild, then in captivity, how would you behave? I would be neasty as hell too, and female varanids tend to be more aggressive than males anyhow.

As for universities, they are public institutions, and all people have the right to enter them...it should not be too difficult to get a simple reference/library card from your local one...You will be amazed how much is out there...
cheers,
markb

[Dragoon]

Shocking, just shocking....

Add to the list of what's in your home, along with whaling harpoons, scimitars, dead animals crawling with beetles, beheaded past pets floating in jars....
...now add dissection pics....

when ladies say "your place or mine", I'll bet you always say ummm..
YOURS!
hahahaha

Your article does not list the record size for the species, just that they average around 4 feet. My female is around 3 feet, and doesn't look to have grown much in the past year, but she's been busy, eh? Her dimunitive size is not a problem, as the male is extremely tolerant of her and has been nothing but gentle so far.
I find the five foot female thing interesting, you are not the first to talk of it. Guy has also said he had a five foot female, wc as an adult, as yours was.
This all gets me thinking about how their metabolism works. All varanids, actually. If conditions in the wild do not allow for egg production, then what energy is available is channelled to growth? I can't wait to raise some, and see what they can do.

I'd be interested in hearing of any captive raised five foot females. Or any BRNs out there, for that matter. *hint*hint*

About the bite you got, did she hang on? So far, mine have been nip and release, which is a lot easier to take.
D.

[markb]

Hi D.,

The bite was a clamp down, and release bite, good and bloody - she was startled as I was, and she seemed almost elated to have finally gotten me - when I entered her terraria, I could actually hear her jaws snap shut as she warned me away!

The record V. ruidicollis specimen is a museum specimen in N. America I believe - I can't remember which one, but its back eat, maybe Harvard or Chicago Museums?? I'll check.

Contraire to what "your team" seem to believe, some varanids are specialists, and require certain nutritional enriched diet, such as V. albigularis, V. ornatus, V. niloticus, V. mabitang, V. olivaceus, V. rudicollus, and maybe V. dumerilii, which all seem to require an unusually high calcium-rich diet - it may be their seasonal climate, hence food availability that causes this calcium-rich requirement - but whatever, it is proven quite clearly these animals need this diet, especially females, for oogenesis processes. Maybe a rodent-rich year-round diet substitutes for this, but I believe some of these animals internal organs/G.I. tracts are more conducsive to certain dietary menu items than others - and if you look at wild stomach contents, there is a proclivity for menu items, sometimes including rodents (less 10%), sometimes and most often not... alot of people ignore it - I do not, as Nature intended these animals to feed on certain animals, and what "she" decides or predelicts for Varanus goes....I think it is always best to TRY to feed as close to natural diet as possible in captivity when possible....it initiates enhancement in their dietary regimen and you might see some caudal tail wiggling too! Also, their feces changes in consistancy from a (more often) runny to a more solid one, = probably better for their G.I. tract than a non-natural diet.

Other varanids are generalists, but some are specialists, like most S.E. Asian varanids, as they are extremely old animals in this lands and have specialisized a great deal...and so has their diets. Something to think about. Nature did not evolve V. rudicollis to have 71 fine blunt teeth for eating rodents did they? I think not....insects is more like it...

As for my house looking like Boris Karloff's mausolium, well if worked for Gomez Addams didn't it?? Most of the alcohol bottles (w/specimens) are in the basement, w/beetles and other gouhlist junk. The final prepped material is here in the house, all over the place, ask John A., Erik G., Jim M., - they'll tell you....it gives the house "charm" and much "atmosphere" to say the least! ...and Yes, I am a GREAT FAN of Boris Karloff, Bela Lugosi, and Universal Horrors collection films of 1930's-1940's - when movies were good and horror was horror - not slash/hack/scream w/no plot or reason....but watch 1967 Circus of Fear, 1962 Carnival of Souls = Amazing films!!

cheers,
markb

[Dragoon]

Hey Marko
You and your 'teams'... you oughta be.. well, .. tickled till you're purple or something. Good thing you put the "team" in parenthesis, those guys on that 'team', would shudder to think I am on it. haha Way to go, you just got me banned!

Anyways, I can see your side of this natural diet argument.
I also see that, you are not looking at all the evidence. Why, I don't know, you're kinda a funny guy that way.
I concede that compared to some of you, I just saw my first monitor yesterday, and by no means think I am "right" about anything. But here are my thoughts on the diet thing...

Ok, so rodents may be impractical or unavailable where *rudicollis* (insert your species here) are found, hence they have relied on other food sources, and have done well. So, here is your evidence, they can do without rodents and be successful. Cool.
People keep them in captivity, and feed them unnatural (not normally found in their home ranges) food, and they eat it and are successful. Is this not cool?

Not to put words in your mouth, but I get the feeling you think a rodent-based diet is detrimental. Not just an alternative diet, but an inferior one. Where is the proof of this, Mark? If this is just your personal opinion, fine, but I think you should state that. You don't like to see them eat rodents... just because, no reason. Maybe you don't want to say rodents are superior, without personal proof, but you could at least admit, it is an acceptable alternative?? Lots and lots of proof exists varanids do well eating rodents. ALL species, the Indo guys too.

Maybe we are misinterpreting the field data on these guys. You said they were specialized feeders. I disagree. I think they are all generalized feeders, and the specialization comes in, in the ability to get the food from difficult areas, not digest it. My point is, just because they can survive where little mammillian prey can be found, doesn't mean they can't do as well as the next varanid, given such a rich food source.

As far as mimicking a natural diet, --ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND???
hahahahahaha, just had to do that!
As a pet owner, I have available to me, crickets, mealworms, waxworms and roaches(in theory). Shrimp is costly, crawdads hard to find! and fish is not eaten. I'd really like to know which of these food items are found in Indonesia. Hmmmm. Roaches, but likely a different species, and raised on different foodstuffs, making the insect a whole other animal, nutritionally. So it looks like feeding an unnatural diet is a given. And if I'm forced to feed something unnatural anyway, I'm going for the food that has proof behind its health benefits. Rodents. =) Those other foods are fed for fun. This is only my reasoning. I'd rather go by my animal's general health, when deciding on food.

Man, I wish you were still keeping. As you would hopefully try a few things, and believe your own eyes. Nothing wrong with being skepical, but you read what they eat in the wild, and endorse it, and you read what they eat in captivity, and ignore it.
I do respect reading, and I do value your opinion. Thanks for the conversation.
D.

[markb]

HI D.,

Nothing like POLITE disagreements! hahaha....GREAT - now we're getting somewhere.....for specialist varanids, who do not naturally feed on rodents, and this can also been demonstrated when looking at the lengths of their intestines (Varanus w/mammalian diets tend to have longer intestines) - can be avoided, and fed other more "comfortable" dietary menu items, like cockroaches, fish, chicks, wax worms, crayfish, etc....I fed these food items to m rudicollis and dumerilii regularly - go to a fish bait shop or check internet for wholesalers there-of - they're out there. I know a fellow who has fed his dumerilii almost exclusively crayfish and he has had 5 successful clutches of dumerilii hatchling egg groups, no problems.

what evideence am I missing? I am fully aware of feeding a 100% rodent diet people get good clutches of S.E. Asia varanus - I realize that of course - Im saying for the long run and longevity, it might be better to feed or more natural diet to what it is accustomed to, as this leads to less chloesterol, fat production, hair impactions, etc...that they would not otherwise experience on a crustacean/invertebrate/fish diet. I am not saying rodents are superior/inferior or anything of the sort, I am saying "some species" of varanus are Not rodent feedings, and should be fed those on a continious regular basis...a more natural diet is probbaly better for them.

You say V. rudicollis is a generalist: With teeth like that? With a telescoping skull like theirs - and like no other Varanus?? Give me a break!! V. rudicollis is one of the most aquatic species in Asia, with a single (1900) data on its diet reported. However alot of information can be derived when you learn what trees they prefer to live on, at what elevation, and population density tell you alot about their semi-social lives....Sherlock Holmsian logic works well if one proceeds slow and cautious, and watches the animals. I have watched varanus for 23 years, spoken to thousands of herp keepers, zoo keepers, corresponded with a thousand or more people about varanids, Game wardens, zoologists, botanists, ornthologists, and you would absolutely astonished what puzzle pieces I have been able to find and piece together from so many generous people around the World, and continue to do so each and every day.....I am NOT bragging or saying I am smarter or know more than you or anyone else - but I have done my homework and continue to do so, everyday.... and the passion WE ALL have for these animals is as strong if not stronger with me today as that September 1980 day I got my first varanid....but I have seen alot of trends, gone back and looked at alot of material, that are all a learning experience, no matter what the outcome - thats where I am coming from.
I have tried alot of things D., and am not closed minded to ideas - but I am to rude people - life is to short to deal with crap (& people), and there is plenty of that around nowadays, thats for sure! One must put their energy where they can, especially when it is limited as mine is - this is reality and there is nothing I can do about that - its my Fate, I accept it completely, and move on as best I can - do I (or anyone else) have a choice? I think not.

Ok, a female V. rudicollis varanid arrives DOA - I open it up to discover to my astonishment it has 12 eggs ready to depsosit perhaps within hours of death - and record the incident, which happened in 1993. Make a horrible situation a learning one, somehow.... I have tried repeatedly to publish to account but it has been rejected innumerable times, probably because of the initial outcome - but to me it is very informative and helpful information to those working w/V. rudicollis....I have similar informations on many many Varanus species in my files, pics everywhere, and notes, postcards, letters, etc filed and ready to reveal their secrets. Thats how Science works; Thats how I work too (in part).

Maybe you have not looked at alot of varanid skulls/teeth - and they vary in number quite abit. For instance nobody has examined V. melinus skull in detail - I have both male/female skulls/jaws here and their jaws are like NO OTHER Varanus, and give good evidence of their natural diet - and I will publish that sooner than later I hope...with photographs.

cheers
markb

[Dragoon]

Me again.
Politely disagreeing.
That is interesting you mention the length of the intestines. As you know, carnivorous animals have shorter intestines than omni or herbivores. Eating meat is a more complete food, and the extra lenth is not required. You didn't say how rudi intestines compare to varanids of a similiar size? But I suspect there may not be much difference, as we all agree they are carnivorous in one way or another. As for the dumerilli being successful eating crayfish, you just lent weight to my belief they are all generalist digesters. I wonder how many more clutches those dums would produce if they were getting some mice! A lot, I'll bet. hehe
I suppose we won't know without doing. And doing many times.

Somehow I think you missed my point. I suggested they are generalist digesters of food, they can survive on anything. They can eat bugs, seafood or rodents, and process it. The teeth and skull shape of various varanids developed in response to the food that is available, yes, but that doesnt mean its optimal food.

I just read a story in N.Geo about the pygmies. They live where food is scarce. Youngsters usually have orange hair (these are dark-skinned people), the orange is from malnutrition. The people stay small and mortality is high. Would you say they are better nourished than us beef and grain eating N. Americans? That it would not be good for them, to eat a less natural diet?

I know you are absolutely convinced hair is bad, so I won't go there. I'd just like to mention, it all comes out the other end without problems. Gross is when they crap in the tub, and 'stir' it thoroughly, because I am out of the room. All that fur is then floating around the sides of the tub. ICKK!
It is my belief at this point, that hydration and heat are the main factors with constipation. As you know, hydration is an ongoing concern with me right now, until I build better cages.
I find it interesting that they always manage to crap after being soaked for a few hours. Even when they already crapped, and are "empty".
As far as high fat and cholesterol goes, cholesterol is extremely high in most seafood. If you look at this chart, you will see that rodents are much, much lower in fat than feeder bugs.
http://www.anapsid.org/foodnutr.html

Obesity is a serious problem with our pet varanids, I agree. It is up to the KEEPER to feed less, and maintain their pet's weight. In the wild, they probably don't get many rodents. But this is a keeper problem, not a monitor problem. People can't keep themselves from becoming obese, much less their animals.

I would gladly pay for any copies of rudi-related papers you have, if you could copy them for me. I am very interested in where they live, and have been sighted in the wild. You did not state what was significant about the dead gravid rudi. Anything cool?
Which brings up another puzzle. Their scalation. Their whole body is keeled. Plus they have short, cobby bodies, whereas other Indos are smooth and attenuate. My guess is they are saxicollis, and the roughness helps them stick better.

What turned you on to varanids? I'm just curious.
I saw a pair of full-grown rudis come through the pet store. They were only there a few days, but they were (are) the most beautiful lizard I have seen.

I agree totally, movies were better before all the special effects and exploding objects became the focus of the film.
Cheers. D.

[markb]

Hi D.,

All varanids are carnvirous, whether insectivores or even omnivores (V. olivaceus, V. salvator), with a single obligate herbivore now known (V. mabitang). Their intestines are very similar, but length of intestine can vary abit, and as you know already their stomachs almost act like an intestine by themselves with amount of elasticity and tremendous expansion they can ensue (see S. Balin post of dead V. doreanus pics for what overfeed looks like! This forum).

Digestion is digestion plain and simple; the mechanics of the stomach is very simple, with stomach acid being released to dissolve down proteins, muscle, tissues, bones, which is turned into a paste-like goo, then passed onto the interstines where bile breaks down fatty acids, and large intestines remove fluids leaving ammonia and waste, concentrated uric acid = urea and fecal material which is expelled on command towards a percieved threat, territorial marking, breeding seasons, in the water (or bathtub)....fur impaction comes from mammalian hair, and along with dehydration can cause Urea deposits to form Urealiths (rod-like urea-made structures) that can (and have) blocked the intestines in varanids, can if not treated immediately cause death very quickly - higher temps can help metabolize and break down food, but if an animal is dehydrated, deposits of hair, urea can have mortal consequences, and this has been seen in insectorious V. exanthematicus which was given a 100% rodent diet.

Varanids can ingest virtually any type of animal and even plant matter and digest it - I never argued that - I am simply saying that some varanids should be, if possible give/offered food closer to what they eat in the wild, as this be more comfortable for their digestive tracts/systems.....you too can eat scorpions in Kalahari Africa, and dog in Korea and your intestines will break down like everything else you put into your stomach, but your Canadian stomach may be abit queasy.... try a little harmless experiment:
Offer your V. rudicollis on a weekly basis changing the diet each week and see if you notice a difference in feeding responses, and I bet You, you will: Try mice 1 week, cockroaches the next, waxworms the third, and then try placing a bowl of the aforementioned animals into separate (glass) containers and see which one(s) it prefers...a Pavlov's dog experiment if you like, and you will ntocie a difference. If you can't get crayfish, try prawns/shrimp (washed in cold water first)....mix up the diet, and see if there is any differences. I did this for ALL my varanids all the time and noticed which prey items they seem to prefer, and would add a rodent (for the insectivores) now and then for supplements and exercise (running it down etc)....try it D., it won't hurt anyone, and your varanid will benefit from variety, which is afterall what they do eat in the wilds....they are not catholic on their diet as you may think I think...but I do not think all varanids should be fed a strickly rodent diet, no matter how many eggs pop out....disease, cancer, longevity also play into diet, as it does with humans, and that is something people should also consider....Im not preaching this is the only way, but it works for the varanids, and thats what counts isn't it?

Of course people can keep themselves from being obese - that is an excuse! Why people get obese is perhaps harder to fix than their obesity - but that is simple basic metabolics: calories going in vrs energy expelled = weight gain, loss or stasis. Simple as that. Many people are more sedentary, and do not exercise as they should = #1 of the reasons so many fat bastards in America today....obesity puts a tremendous strain on heart, blood vessels, blood presure, coagulation of toxins in the body, and over time the body is no longer efficient, and cell death increases = death of the organism.

The dead V. rudicollis female was signiicant for it told me what time of year V. rudicollis breed/deposit their eggs in Malaysia (February), how old females can be, how big the eggs are, how many eggs a clutch can be (12), and also she had a few tick nymphs on her too, Aponomma gervaisi. That tells me alot, especially when we really know so little about this species.

I will let you know about copying costs later D. Like the V. salvadorii, they are the Dragons of the trees - but these dragons are much more docile and dietary menu different, hence fear of them is much less than the "Artrellia" of PNG which is a known man-killer/hunter. Under each scale of their body is a osteoderm, and these little bones protect them from injury from predsators, other Varanus, and so on....perhaps the osteoderms also give their skin strength to plow through diciduous tree bark like a bull-dozer eating all the grubs and bugs it can find?

cheers D.,
markb

[Dragoon]

Ahhh, so what you're saying is, dehydration is a causse of impactions, not the hair. Very good, then. I completely agree.

Hydration is a very big issue, I think. I've heard it remarked, that most "pet" monitor photos are of dehydrated specimens. I know mine drink like a fish when put in the tub, even though they always have a drinking bowl available. Once curious thing they do, is snort water. They do it many times, and its cute, but do you know of any reason behind this? They could just be clearing the water out, I guess. Do they ever like to frolic in the water!

I didn't know they had osteoderms, but that's good to hear. I read somewhere it makes the leather poor quality for the skin trade.
So far, I've tried fish, mealworms, waxworms, silkworms, superworms, and crickets with mine. No takers, except for a small amount of crickets, they must have been real hungry that time. I'm working on the roaches. Someday.
I will try again with the bugs in the fall, if my eggs hatch, I will have lots of bugs. But again, its just fun food, if they even eat any of it.
Have a great day.
D.

[markb]

The snorting water is easy explanation: most S.E. Asian varanids snort salt, which is removed from their bodies/blood/fluids/water intake from their nasal cavities as many marine birds do, like seagulls, albatross, ganets, etc...do. Also the aquatic S.E. Asian Varanus have valves which enable them to open/close their nasal chambers from outside, and when re-opening them, snort the trapped fluid within them out.

The varanids know what they need/prefer to eat, its your trick to figure out what it is, and follow through with it if you can, as this is best for the varanus....

cheers,
markb

[Dragoon]

Actually, I kept iggies for a long time, so I'm very familiar with the salt-spraying. They are soooo messy...

With the rudis though, I was wondering if it had something to do with their nasal passages. Room air is so much drier than the air they are designed to breathe, so I was thinking, maybe they need to hydrate and moisten their breathing tubes? Does that sound crazy?
I suppose I won't have more clues, until I can take them from real humid cage, and give them a soak. If the snorting and snuffling is less then, maybe I was thinking in the right direction. Anyways, its real cute, as the nares point backwards, and all that snorting only splatters themselves.
Cheers. D.

[markb]

The average temps in MAlaysia is about 90 F, with a high humidity, so you might want to increase your humidity, which also increases its ability to smell the air and interact with its environment = enrichment. It could also be a sign of respiratory distress if you see bubbles too? Check its throat to see if mucus is there....and listen for airways blockage....its a rasping like noise as they breathe, more noticeable when they sleep than awake....and something I am very familiar with on a first name basis.
cheers,
markb

[Dragoon]

Mark, I'm getting sad. Please take care of yourself.

Thanks for the tip, but I've already been through the respiratory thing with the male. Its terrible. Baytril took care of it, and I'm trying to take better care of him.

The average temp is 90, huh? Any references to what the temp is, up high in the trees? Has anyone thought to take temps up there? D.

[markb]

Sad? Why?? Its a beautiful July day, you have a competant Prime Minsiter, we have a stupid President, the World is still on its axis, and there are perhaps 20 or so wars going on...does this make you sad? Yeah, I guess it would anybody, yes....

Basic physics/meteorology principals: warm air rises, as temperature rises, so does the pressure. As air cools down, the pressure decreases, and it falls. Although slight, the air temp/humidity could be higher 20 meters (60 feet) in the canopy than on the cooler ground where solar radiation does not reach in closed canopy forests, or in open forests or gallery forests where sporadic sunlight filters in, sunny regions are exposed to the intense equatorial heat of the the day, whereby alot of animals seek shade - it is very hot in direct sunlight in the latitudes, so my guess the V. rudicollis seek out shady places where air and humidity temps are moderate and comfortable for them, 90 F/90%.... for egg incubation temps, cooler temps about 87 F would be preferable....

Baytril and other antibiotics take a heavy toll on varanus body systems and make cause damage to other systems such as kidney failure and alike; at the 2001 Chicago Herpetological conference one of the veterinarians there told the audience that most of the dosages given are probably TWICE the safe dosage they should be giving, and half of what is generally accepted nowadays will fight off the infection with minimal damage to other bodily systems....as one on numerous antibiotic regimens for the last 2 years, these take a brutal cost on ones body, and wear one out almost more than the damn bacterial infection wars being waged....talk to your vet about this.
good luck,
markb

[Dragoon]

Yeah, its just too bad about your 'president'. Too bad money can buy offices. ..

What about the water? I'm assuming large bodies of water, would be much cooler than the ambient air.
What I'm trying to find out, is how they obtain coolness, if the heat there is constant and never ending. Good point about the eggs. Cooler temps must be found for them, and I'm sure its not in the water.
Perhaps temps are more of a concern to the gravid females, than the nesting materials. If the air is near saturation all the time, then humidity is not a concern either? What I am trying to understand is, what then does a captive rudicollis understand, over here in captivity where the variables are different?
The answers are in my animal, I just have to learn to be more observant.
My question to you is, do any of your references list acutal recorded temps in these locales? I'm curious about the water, too. I wish I could go there with a temp gun, and go around pointing it at everything. I would find out where the hot and cool spots are then. It would give me some clues, anyway.

My vet is a dog and kitty vet. I won't stress him out with questions on things he hasn't studied. I will concentrate on not letting them fall ill.
Cheers. D.