South Florida Grand Slam of hots

[herpetological]

Alex Pan........You make an arguement again without all the facts. Many of the species we work with are locality specific.(I'll explain. Certain species have color, patterns or other morphological differences which make them unique or identifiable to a specific geographic area.) In many cases the only specimens from a specific area are those that were collected from the wild before that area was developed or the environment was so drastically changed that they no longer exist. A good example is the lower Keys form of the Red Rat Snake(Rosy Rat) We have specimens from about half of the historic range. Before the 1950's this was considered a specific sub-species. The problem is that this species no longer exists in the wild as a Lower Keys specific recognizable sub-species.(There are more taxonomic arguements there...) The reason for this is two fold. One, with the introduction of progress came the need for "landscaping". With the ornamental plants came "mainland" red rats snakes. These are larger, different colored, patterned etc. etc. These specimens have intergrated with the "Keys" population and created a hybrid. Two, many of the areas(Upwards of 70%) no longer have any true rosy's or all red rat snakes have been extripated due to development. We have collected specimens for years from these areas. We keep detailed records of where they come from. We only breed specimens to each other that come from the exact locality. Again, many of these no longer exist in the wild. If these programs and collection of specimens were not initiated in the wild years ago....many would not exist. Also, 1.1 is not a viable gene pool when it comes to some species. Therefore, a group sizable enough to develop a genetically diverse group is needed. Hence the collection of more than 1 specimen. When the opportunity arises we still take time to go to specific areas to collect a few more specimens that might match the specific form from a given locality. If they exist......This particular form has a commercially bred comparison, the hypo red rat snake. The hypos were derived from rosy's. They have selectively bred geberation after generation until they no longer resemble the origional form. Obviously, the locality specific specimens we work with are not worth what the hypo's are. Therfore, we obviously have not done this for the money. We have done this to save a specific morph or species/sub-species. Now......If we had waited and not collected specimens when we did we would not have exact locality breeding groups that represent historical populations. In this case it is impossible to release the neonates back into the wild even if we wanted to...It's all concrete and shopping malls! If we follow your argument then they should have been left to be bulldozed out of existence! Also, as has been mentioned, it is not recommended that specimens wether C.B. or W.C. be released into a new location. (Plenty of reasons but, I won't go into them here.) In the case of our planned release of some of the Nerodia specimens...In that particular location water snakes have not existed there for at least 30 years. The man made retention/wetlands area has no current population that can be affected. Therefore, a release here is a viable option. (Oh, did I mention that you should ask before you make judgements???? Oh, YES I DID!) Now, we have another statement that was incorrect. It was mentioned that (By lowrider) a captive bred specimen will not do well if released into the wild. This is untrue. Herps are "hardwired" so to speak, differently than mammals, birds etc. For example snakes are not taught by their parents to feed, avoid predators, mate etc. etc. They operate totally on "hardwired" instinct. We would not have the problem with introduced exotic species here in Florida if that were the case. However, in the case of commercially produced color morphs, they may not survive since they do not resemble the natural patterns of their wild caught relatives. Alex Pan....I like your quote. You should read it AGAIN! "....The wild animal have a tendency of keeping it's balance,and did so over millions of years before humans came." YES, BEFORE HUMANS CAME!!!!!!!!!!!! Either you live in the city and only see animals in your local zoo or small park or you live in an area that has no one for 50 miles or more??? Here, it's a different story. We have 7000 people per week that move to Florida. We do not collect in protected areas or areas that are not in danger of future habitat modification or development. Even in the parks I see mans impact on the environment. Reduced water levels due to drainage modification, environmental extremes brought about by habitat changes, destruction of the environment by unscrupulous off-road vehicle use(This does not include everyone) etc. etc. When I was collecting cottonmouths we traveled through a park area(Not collecting there) and we came across a cottonmouth that was still alive BUT, it had just been chopped up with a machete! Gee, if that had been a specimen that was collected at least it or it's progeny could have gone on to produce more specimens in captivity or educate the public. IT WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN DEAD! Why not jump on these people! As I mentioned there was an area of the highway with hundreds of dead water snakes. Why not criticize the drivers or a state that feels funding is better slated to the big popular furry animals Also, population densities for herps are much different in the south. Particularly when it comes to species like water snakes, ribbons, garters etc. During one study in S. Florida along a 5 mile stretch, water snakes were found to have a population density in the thousands. (I'd have to look up the specifics so don't quote me directly) You also, want to argue the "Right to collect or take snakes from the wild". Well waht gives you the right to own any being? (A whole entire argument in itself!) It has already been mentioned that some species should not be collected. Many do not do well in captivity due to specific diets or enviromental needs. I totally agree with this. However, if a person has a project and is working to find out how to fill these needs....obviously they will have to be taken out of the wild. Obviously it would entail collecting more than one specimen. Now....Do we collect specimens now and learn what we can, make our mistakes now or do we wait until there are only a handful left in the wild and we cannot afford to make mistakes! I was going to go into the other argument about how many preserved dead specimens we need in museum collections as well....But, this is getting long and that would be another argument to take up another page!!! LOL's!