Feeding guidelines. Hatchling to adulthood

[bigsnakegirl785]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

Oh so 10 - 15% is more than you like but 8 - 10 is "more than adequate". Well which is it?

I never said it had to be an adult size. Just larger than 500 grams at 2 years old. They are predators after all and they need to handle themselves against other predators trying to eat them. A large enough rodent would handle them at that size.

Which boa locale? Why were that small? Shortage of food? Too much competition for prey items? Were they on an island? Do you have a study where people watched babies from birth to 4+ years in the wild?



barely under 10%? You do know a 6% meal is 40% less intake than the 10% size right? You don't think it is because it's only 4 numbers smaller but it's a drastic difference.

We aren't talking colubrids here. Also, I've known many colubrid keepers to feed multiple items a week due to the higher metabolism.

I don't know why you combat it at all. Evidence, piles of it, are in your face. I guess you can keep starving your animals.



How have you seen these breeders? Are they friends or FB people posting pics of their animals? Do you visit their homes and carefully watch their animals? How old are the animals? Have they successfully bred for 10 years?

I do not fatten my females up right before breeding. I simply feed them every week a meal about 10 - 15% of their body weight which equates to a medium rat. They stay healthy and are not overweight as you seem to think. Neither do my friends who I visit and have even fed their animals myself.

Would you care to show me a study on gravid females and fatty liver disease?



Yup. I've had 1500 gram males grow off a single small rat weekly. They just happen to be bigger snakes. Just as I've seen 4000 gram females grow to that size off medium rats. Individual snakes. You suggest however that all, except the massive ones, can thrive off a small rat. I guess it depends on your definition of "thrive".



Again, do you have a study to prove your facts? Have you bred snakes let alone ball pythons before? Do you know what a female looks like after laying eggs? Some look like they haven't done anything while others may have consumed 50% of their weight in developing and laying eggs. (Reason I am not sure as they are relatively same size but different results).

I feed them both the same afterwards. Next feeding day after removing the eggs they receive a medium rat. Then they continue that schedule until I notice a shed cycle (i never offer during a shed cycle) and until they stop eating next breeding season.

I do suggest you not really comment on breeding if you haven't done so. Or at the very least preface everything you say with "I've only read this from someone who's done it..."

Exactly what I said. 8-10% is adequate, but since 10-15% is so widely used I'm not going to say not to do that if someone insists on using it. 10-15% isn't a lifelong feeding regimen anyways, generally I see it advised to stop either when the snake is 500-800 grams, or whenever it is eating small rats. In general I do not see keepers/breeders advising to use that method into adulthood. I do see the odd person that does, however.

Any Boa constrictor locale/species (the ones generally referred to as "red tails"), and dwarfs will stay smaller for even longer. Even in captivity, eating as much as they do, my 2 year olds are in the 3'-4' range.

This is an interesting thread discussing the common 10-15% rule. There's also this snake, which died quite young being fed not much more than the average amount - though the extra meals here and there are probably to blame. I have other links, but they're either really well buried in my bookmarks or they're gone.

I am aware of the difference between 6% and 10%, I'm not that bad at math. Still don't believe that a bp requires regular meals of 10-15%, especially if it's an adult.

Yes, and they don't require it. I feed my garters single rat pinks or mouse pinks/fuzzies, which are in the 5.5-7% range every 2 weeks. I used to go up to 14% of their weight weekly, but once they stopped growing all they did was become obese. Reducing their prey size and feeding half as often has not had much of an effect on their body tone despite my efforts to slim them out, and certainly hasn't reduced them to "skeletons."

I don't have stories, but I have links of breeders losing gravid females to fatty liver disease, and upon a necropsy finding the eggs in the middle of being reabsorbed or otherwise unviable. I also have photos of a gravid boa female that died from fatty liver disease if you'd like me to post them. I can try to Google the FB link as well if that's preferred, I have posted them in threads here before.

There was a link to a gravid viperid that I used to have...not sure if I never saved it or it no longer exists, but the female died soon after becoming gravid. The cause was fatty liver disease.

Fatty Liver Disease - EverythingReptile.org

I did exactly as you said I should. I said I have seen breeders feed small rats every 2 weeks and produce viable clutches. I have also seen studies to back up the metabolic claims I made. There is of course an elevated use of energy stores, but not to the degree most people seem to assume (meaning not enough to triple or quadruple nutrient intake - this has often lead to dead females from my observation).

This study mentions that early development in viviparous snakes does not result in significant metabolic changes, but does occur later once the eggs begin developing into babies. If you were to allow a bp to maternally incubate, I am sure you would notice similar levels, but the actual egg production would not create as great of a metabolic demand. Especially when given access to elevated ambient temperatures for incubation.

Originally Posted by Andy_G

If you fed most pituophis as described, you'd have a lot of snakes with protruding spines. I'd go so far as to call your suggestion on colubrids eating 6-7% body weight and that being enough "ridiculous". Feeding regimens for boas as well as your opinion on feeding does not apply to all species, sorry. Your experience with one ball python doesn't refute the experience and opinion of everyone else, most more experienced. Also, ball pythons never need to even see pinkies, be it mice or rats, and to mention otherwise is ill-advised and honestly something I missed of yours in my previous reply.

The pink was going off of the 10-15% rule, I did say pinks or fuzzies. A rat pink is a decent bit bigger (though roughly equal in weight - rat pinks are heavier on the heavier end of the spectrum than a hopper) than the mouse hoppers you yourself advised.

I feed my garters similar to that, and unless pituophis have a higher metabolism than a garter I don't believe that to be true.