Wild Scaleless

[eminart]

Originally Posted by MesoCorney

Ok lets talk about your input thus far. You recited simple recaps of the predator prey model several times directly out of a freshman level ecology book. What you don't seem to understand is that these models only cover a natural predator and prey relationship. Once you introduce non natural factors like introduced species and wild collecting, once healthy populations can crash. Some great examples of species nearly wiped out by collecting are the north American bison, American beaver and Boelen's pythons. Historically there are many examples of species going extinct or nearly because of human collection, so what has changed. Also I again ask you of a single example of collecting for profit being a benefit to a species being collected? You said you could but then you didn't, seems a little wishy washy to me. Yes habitat loss is currently the biggest problem many species face, but this decline is only made worse by ignorant collectors in many cases. Especially when these collectors feel justified by pseudo science and a basic understanding of biological processes.

Your argument that these species have built in protections to human collection, and hence part of the natural system, is asinine. Snakes have been evolving for hundreds of thousands of years creating a natural balance and you think 50 years of collecting by humans the snakes somehow naturally deal with this introduced pressure? You have got to be kidding me? I had more faith in your reasoning perhaps. I already gave you reasons why it is unnatural so why don't you give a shot at explaining your point of view? Cuz you said so is not an answer.

You don't think people collect the brightest and prettiest specimen they can find? With your vast experience in the biological field I don't have to explain to you, again, that this is in most cases also the most fit in the natural world. I can say, with out a doubt, collectors looking to keep snakes or start a breeding program certainly do not collect the least healthy drab specimen they can find.

With many of these species there is no information what so ever about population numbers, let alone the effect wild collecting is having on the population. We seemingly have an even less complete understanding of snake taxonomy, which makes conservation even more important. The chances that we have caused species to go extinct with out even reconizing it is pretty high. Your solution is to carry on blindly, correct?

"no, in MY WORLD, the common snakes are doing ok, and there's no any impact.". "In your world one must prove you are harming a population to change your actions". These statements are analogous, I am glad you agree with me. I am saddened your world view is so self serving.

You keep building straw men and knocking them down. We were talking about a guy keeping one scaleless snake (assuming it were legal to do so) being harmful to the population. Or, if hobbyist pet collecting affects the snake populations. Yet, you keep jumping to these wild scenarios of industrial, mass collecting and equating it to the slaughter of the american bison? And, you say I don't understand the argument? I think everyone agrees there's a limit. There are laws in place to protect most of the species that need protecting.

And, no, I'm not suggesting snakes have evolved in 50 years (your suggested time frame) to deal with human collecting. I'm suggesting they evolved over millions of years to deal with human collecting, or the collecting from the predators that humans have displaced. And they've evolved to deal with mass deaths from food shortages, diseases, weather extremes, etc. etc. HOW the snakes are taken from the ecosystem makes no difference.

You keep saying I'm giving you Ecology 101 stuff. I don't think you understand Ecology 101. I certainly haven't seen any 102 course material from you.

And, I'm sorry that you're saddened by my world view, of which you know nothing.

We're probably going to have to agree to disagree. If I'm beginning to remember correctly, aren't you the guy that argued at length about snakes being intelligent and bonding with owners?