Problem in our industry

[Andy_G]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

Andy_G is the problem in the industry.

That is all.

Why you dirty...

[dave himself]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

Andy_G is the problem in the industry.

That is all.

Originally Posted by Andy_G

Why you dirty...

Pistols at dawn

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by Andy_G

Why you dirty...

I like to entertain myself.

Originally Posted by dave himself

Pistols at dawn

Let's do a classic musket fight instead! 20 paces.

[trailblazer295]

Originally Posted by dave himself

Pistols at dawn

Wait you skipped the step where Aaron gets slapped with a glove "you insulted my honor. I challenge you to a duel"

[dave himself]

.



Let's do a classic musket fight instead! 20 paces.[/QUOTE]

With blindfolds

Originally Posted by trailblazer295

Wait you skipped the step where Aaron gets slapped with a glove "you insulted my honor. I challenge you to a duel"

I demand satisfaction this hilarious

[trailblazer295]

Originally Posted by dave himself

.



Let's do a classic musket fight instead! 20 paces.

With blindfolds



I demand satisfaction this hilarious[/QUOTE]

LOL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jC0b886pH_c

[bigsnakegirl785]

Originally Posted by DLLNP

When I said replicating "natural environments through perfect husbandry" I probably should have been more clear. By "perfect husbandry" I mean the way we generally use it here i.e. humidity, temperatures, feeding schedule etc. I don't necessarily mean a bio-active viv... I have other animals in bio-active setups and I love them but I am not interested in having a snake in a bio-active viv.. dealing with their waste production is a whole other ball game compared to small lizards!

But having said that, I totally agree with frank. Being able to watch your animals interact with their environment (natural or artificial) is one of the best things about owning these animals in my opinion. I can watch my snakes move around their enclosures for hours at night. I read this quote from a large reptile keeper sometime last year and for the life of me can't remember it but it was something like:

"Create an environment in your animal's enclosure that closely replicates their natural habitat and conditions and they will reward you with complex and beautiful natural behaviour..." or something along those lines! Of course I believe this can be achieved through an artificial environment (not bio-active) .

Yeah that totally makes sense, in which case I think it would be more appropriate to say to provide them an ideal environment. A naturalistic environment isn't necessarily beneficial or preferred, and by saying that people will naturally associate it with well, natural stuff (like I did). haha We should be taking the best parts of nature and straining them from the rest.

Originally Posted by Andy_G

In regards to the OP, all we can really do is sell with education and support. What someone does after the purchase is kind of out of our hands even though we would want it to be different.


Racking systems were originally thought up not only to save space, but also to help wild caught animals acclimate to captivity and feed regularly by reducing as much stress as possible (small and secure quarters, quickly stabilised conditions, easy to clean interior to reduce interaction, no bright lights). If snakes or specifically "enjoyed" being observed, I would whole-heartedly agree with replicating their natural environment in all instances, but they don't and it leaves them feeling vulnerable. Lots of species or individuals do well in larger naturalistic enclosures and aren't phased about being observed...and some even demand larger spaces with their activity levels or size and are sometimes unfairly denied it (but that's not unique to reptiles and amphibians), but others do not, and I believe it is usually US that would truly be benefiting from these large decorative enclosures (not necessarily a bad thing), not our captives, and to think otherwise is rather anthropomorphic to me. This "trickle down" effect from experienced hobbysits is NOT a bad thing in my opinion.

I love naturalistic enclosures...I even have a couple of bio-active ones myself and I do love watching the geckos present in them, and larger snakes that aren't phased by being on display and are very active are kept in sizeable vivs...but would I recommend for that to be done for all species? No.

As long as the species has a species-appropriate set up, there's nothing wrong with it. I haven't found a snake myself that I believe would benefit from a rack set up, but my eastern garter Demigod is the closest to wild caught I have experience with, and he's captive born, does well in his little tank set up, not shy at all.

I think there's a certain minimum standard that should be kept, but that doesn't mean I think all snakes should be kept in big intricate spaces, but they should at least be allowed enough space to thermoregulate and exercise. I don't really like seeing/hearing about adult retics being kept in 4'x2's and 6'x2's, and imo I feel the average rack system ball pythons are kept in are rather cramped in general. Of course, there may be some individuals that do benefit from being in a rack, but I don't think as a species they deserve the "pet rock" stereotype they've earned. They can be quite active at night and make use of any space you'll offer, if offered in the correct way. They get the most exercise on their own time than they get in the few hours a week they'd get from handling.

[Jack4193]

I appreciate it that someone has started discussing this. I am 14 and have 2 corns and 1 BP. I have already made a decision that i am never going to give up these snakes, i got them as babies and have raised the corns for 3 years and the BP for half a year and intend to have them their entire life, 20 years or more, I don't care. I am afraid that if i give them up someone, as the original starter of this discussion put it, someone who just wants a pet, not the responsibility, and without the responsibility there is no fun in keeping reptiles, the challenge of keeping them happy if what is enjoyable. Now i by no means think im a perfect keeper, i fall behind on cleaning sometimes and im not always patient but they still mean a lot to me, they are the only animals i have kept in my life, i don't have a dog, a cat, a fish, i have one of the most unusual pets for a teenager and i enjoy not having the same as everybody else, that doesn't mean you can get a cool animal like this and just not care for it properly, you have to do research and understand the responsibility. I have nothing for cruel herp keepers but loathing, they are selfish, irresponsible and oblivious to how they are hurting our hobby. The government will ban the keeping of these extraordinary exotic animals because they are being harmed by people who don't care. I hope we can preserve the ability to keep these animals.

[pet_snake_78]

The government isn't going to ban herps because of bad keepers. The government is and will ban most herps because they are being successfully lobbied by animal rights activists who are against the keeping of all animals regardless of conditions and believe that humans and animals must have no contact. They also are doing their best to shut down zoos, for example. Their agenda is still a little too radical for the average joe so what they do is setup psuedo environmental organizations. Their pamphlets tell you the money is going to save wildlife, homeless animals, etc. Then they take that money and lobby or sue the government to get insane laws passed that do nothing to help animals but achieve their goals of making it more difficult or impossible to keep certain species in captivity. Little by little the list you're allowed to keep or cross state lines with is dwindling. None of these laws do anything to protect the animals. We already know why animals become rare and that's primarily habitat destruction.

Right now we are trying to reconstruct the passenger pigeon through modifying related birds. Wouldn't it be a heck of a lot easier if someone actually had a few hundred of the *actual* birds in captivity. Of course, you can't just take a 13th generation captive animal and throw it out in the wild, but here is a living example of where true conservationists could speed their project up by decades if someone had just kept a few flocks going? In many parts of the world palm plantations are going to cause species we have in captivity to go extinct, no if ands or butts about it, it will happen. It would be a shame if no one could ever study a living species again simply because the government stopped private citizens from continuing to keep and breed those that made it here. Bare in midn the few that made it here were on deaths doorstep and generally found during the very act of new roads and clearings for said palm plantations.

The real problem with the reptile industry is apathy and a lack of organization. The craigslist type keepers will always be there. They are already breaking existing laws by keeping animals in neglectful conditions and I do not have sympathy for them if they get caught and their animals taken away but it's not really a reptile problem, it's an all animals kept by people who they themselves do not mind living in filth problem. In the US, usark is doing an amazing job but it won't be enough, at best it will slow down bans slightly.

[pet_snake_78]

Jeez I just read what I wrote and it sounded a little dark lol I don't want to be that guy so I wanted to add a positive note here. There are many many up and coming keepers in Asia. I believe Asia will eventually become the dominant continent for reptile keeping. The guys coming up there that I've spoken with are having success with new forms and species of Asian snakes that we do not have in the US. They are also bringing in species from the world over which are rare here in the US and hopefully they will have success with them. How some of those animals got there is a bit curious however.

[sattva]

Man has a tendency to drive to extinction what he doesn't want or need... Take the cow for instance... If man didn't use it for it's hide and food, it would probably be on the endangered species list...You know like we did to the poor buffalo... I think most of the snakes, owned by the general population today, would not be here if it weren't for breeders and people like you and me... It's all about desire, supply and demand! You know, Ye olde cash flow...

[pet_snake_78]

Ya it sort of ties in with hunting. In MO (where most of my experience is) hunting finances huge amounts of land. People also buy acres and just leave them set aside for hunting. An insurance salesman bought a really good piece of hunting land. Now, he's not stupid and he doesn't hunt, but he knows access to that land makes him very popular with those who he can give it to.They keep buying insurance from him! Now, it's true he doesn't give a rats rear end about reptiles but unknown to him he has preserved hundreds of snakes living under rocks and in rocky crevices on that land... actually they'd probably be terrified if they knew how many venomous snakes were living there lol MO also gives landowners monies if they allow public hunting on their land. I've never used the program myself as my family only has about 80 acres, but I know it exists. I've also convinced my family not to kill reptiles on the land. Now they send me pictures of live snakes rather than posting pics of dead snakes for me to identify. Finally, in a few places, a sustainable harvest of reptiles has been going on for many years. The trick is to educate people that they need to collect at or above the carrying capacity of the land. For the pet trade, the need to keep them alive somewhat acts as a natural buffer, for the food trade I think it's a legitimate concern. Fortunately, decades of game management experience can help guide that conversation.