A Hard Decision, Not Sure What to Do

bigsnakegirl785 · 08-29-15, 04:03 PM

My ball python's terrible feeding habits over the past 3 years has me coming to a decision that maybe rehoming him to someone who has steady living may be the best thing to do for him if I can't get him to eat regularly again. I've had him almost 9 years, got him September 23, 2006 as a baby. The first 5-6 years I had him, he ate reliably, winter or summer, but when I made my first move fall of 2013 that's when his bad feeding has started.

The majority of his strikes seem stress-related, each strike has began each time I've moved or changed his enclosure, and once when he escaped his tub. The other two were when I was changing his food source. His longest fast was 8 months long, and shortest was 2 months.

I have feeding records of him since May 2013, and there's only 18 months where he's eaten at least once a month (he gets fed biweekly). Before I began my records, he'd been through 1-2 fasts as well and had lost a noticeable amount of weight. His current fast has been 97 days long, and he's lost at least 10% of his weight. All his other fasts he lost less than 10% of his weight after a 6-8 month fasting period, so the fact he's already lost that much after maybe 3 months is worrying me. He doesn't seem to be holding onto weight as well as he used to, which could be because he's refused so much food over the past 3 years. He's the lightest weight he's ever been recorded at since I began taking his weight in July 2013 (he was 1277 grams at the end of his fast).

He's been to the vet and doesn't have any illnesses or parasites that they can tell. It's been a year or two, so I could take him again and get him tested but I doubt there's any differences. He's eating a bit better now than when I was taking him to the vet.

Right now, I'm thinking of just caving in and getting a few live mice and/or a live rat and see if he'll eat them next week. I'd wait longer, but he's losing weight faster than I've seen him do in the past. He gains weight quickly when he does eat as well, taking only 2-3 months to get back up to regular weight and then he holds steady.

My main problem is we still plan on moving in the next 2-3 weeks, we're just waiting on word that our background check went through. Then in the next 5 years we hope to move out of state if possible, or at least buy a house in-state to live in permanently. I've already moved twice in 3 years, and Bud is the only snake that has been affected by me moving. All the other snakes either haven't been affected by the big moves (Cloud and Draco), or haven't shown sensitivity to the usually big stress events like shipping and thus I have a reasonable guess that future moves won't bother them as long as there's a decent amount of time between them (Demigod and Sanji for shipping and River and Nymeria for long car rides).

He ate for 9 months in the current set up he's been in, all through the winter, spring, and part of summer. Nothing about his husbandry or set up has changed at all, he began refusing food after I offered him a rat after eating mice for 8 months. He ate a rat once, after eating a mouse first, but after that he's turned his nose up at both mice and rats. At times he shows interest, he'll stick his head out and flick his tongue when I tap it on the ground outside his hide, but beyond inspecting it he won't do anything. He'll even push his nose up against it in its fur, then turn around and go back into his hide and refuse to come back out. Other times, he'll start roaming when he smells the food, but completely ignore the rat/mouse and climb right out of his tub as soon as I lift a corner.

If he doesn't take live, I don't know what else to do, I know I can get him eating again eventually that's not a problem, but I don't know how long he'll eat before he refuses again. If this was just a once a year thing, for a few months, that would be one thing, but he goes on fasts multiple times a year with differing lengths. They do seem stress-related, which means I basically have to step on egg-shells to keep him eating, which makes it harder to keep him eating because he's so sensitive.

I do not handle him at all anymore, only to do cage maintain, and he's allowed to sit curled up in a hide while I do my work. That seems to be really helping to get him to eat reliably, but doesn't stop all his fasts.

So now I need to decide if I want to find him a home with a more experienced ball python owner, where maybe his stress won't be triggered as much, or if I should wait a few years and see if he'll go back to normal when I'm no longer moving around. I want what's best for him.

Temps and humidity are the same they've been for 3-4 years, since I began actually monitoring my snakes' husbandry: 85-90F hot spot, 80F cool end during summer and 75F cool end during the winter and 50-65% humidity. His bedding is the same as well. I measure temps both on the surface with a temp gun and just above the bedding with a thermometer/stat probe. Humidity is measured only on the cool end, from just above the bedding to 1/2" off the bedding to ensure it's far enough away from the bedding to get the humidity in the air. I also measure his body surface temp at his head, belly, and back with the temp gun. So I'm 99.99% sure everything's accurate, all his fasts seem stress-related only, with only a few being related to food source changes, I have no reason to suspect it's husbandry-related atm.

**Minkness** · 08-29-15, 04:36 PM

Hmm...that is definitely a tough situation to be in. I'm sorry to hear he's being so difficult. When my male bp goes off his food, I found that offerinv it to him when it's REALLY warm (almost hot) triggers his feeding response. Have you tried making sure the food item is actually warm to the touch before offering it?

If that doesn't work....honestly, I'd rehome him. Just my opinion though. Good luck either way.

bigsnakegirl785 · 08-29-15, 10:58 PM

Yes, when he goes on feeding strikes, I give him a nice hot spot on the head, and make sure the rest of the body is warm. When I was switching him from live, I'd have to use actually boiling water, hot tap water wasn't hot enough to elicit a feeding response. When he IS eating, he doesn't need a hot spot.

On another note, his condition has taken a more serious turn that means I cannot consider re-homing him at this time. He's lost even more weight since the 8th. I weighed him at 1237 grams on the 8th of this month, today he came in at 1198 grams, and his body tone has fallen drastically. He is 79 grams lighter than I have ever seen him in the past, and has now lost 13% of his weight. At this point in time, a vet visit is a serious concern, I'm not even sure if should wait to see if he eats at this point. 13% of his weight by itself isn't a concern, but that's a lot of weight to lose in only 3 months, considering he didn't lose even 10% after 8 months in the past. His skin is very loose, and I can easily pinch a lot of skin between my fingers and it moves very easily under my fingers.

Getting snake cages may have to take a back seat if he turns out to need extensive veterinary care...

**Minkness** · 08-30-15, 06:08 AM

Poor baby =(

Not that it is something that should be done lightly, but what about force feeding?

I'll be honest though, you are better than me. I'd offer him to a rescue or something that handles that sort of thing. Good luck, hopefully nothing is seriously wrong and he just needs a few meals.

SnoopySnake · 08-30-15, 08:27 AM

I don't have a bp so I don't really know, but I've heard people say that doing a whole cage clean (hides, water bowls,etc.) to get rid of their smell in the enclosure can help get them eating. Something to do with the way they naturally eat, shed and poop in the wild. But since you say this happens when you move/change his enclosure, I don't know that it'd work for you...

dave himself · 08-30-15, 09:58 AM

You said you've tried different setups, I know this may sound stupid or maybe you've already tried this. But have you tried him in a viv, the reason I'm asking is we have a ball python male and we had similar problems with him but once we put him in a viv he started eating much better for us

**Minkness** · 08-30-15, 10:23 AM

This may sound like a silly question...how is a viv different than any other type of set up?

bigsnakegirl785 · 08-30-15, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minkness

Poor baby =(

Not that it is something that should be done lightly, but what about force feeding?

I'll be honest though, you are better than me. I'd offer him to a rescue or something that handles that sort of thing. Good luck, hopefully nothing is seriously wrong and he just needs a few meals.

I'm seriously considering it at this point. 20% of body weight loss seems to be the general consensus of when to take the snake to the vet, but that's for a period of 6 months, not 3 months. He's lost 13% of his weight in roughly 3 months, that's a lot of weight to lose in so short a time. Especially considering he loss less than 10% of his weight after an 8 month strike.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnoopySnake

I don't have a bp so I don't really know, but I've heard people say that doing a whole cage clean (hides, water bowls,etc.) to get rid of their smell in the enclosure can help get them eating. Something to do with the way they naturally eat, shed and poop in the wild. But since you say this happens when you move/change his enclosure, I don't know that it'd work for you...

Yeah it hasn't worked for me so far, unfortunately. His bedding is due for a change, though, so he's getting a full substrate change regardless. I guess I'll see if that helps.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dave himself

You said you've tried different setups, I know this may sound stupid or maybe you've already tried this. But have you tried him in a viv, the reason I'm asking is we have a ball python male and we had similar problems with him but once we put him in a viv he started eating much better for us

Yes, he lived in a homemade wooden viv for the first half of his life, and I did have him temporarily in a 6' wooden viv before my father kicked me out of his house. Right now, I am unable to bring it to the apartment as the only wall available is the one where the thermostat to the house is, which means I can only have one viv atm. If we could convince our roommate to get rid of his entertainment system then I would be able to, but no luck.

He has eaten in each type of set up so far, there's just a curve where he has to get used to the change.

I'm hoping if our background checks out we'll be moved into a trailer within the next few weeks, and then I should be able to bring the other 6' viv with me.

That said, I do plan on buying at least 2 4' PVC enclosures, which will fit in the apartment as it currently is, so he will go in one and my retic will be temporarily in the other.

marvelfreak · 08-30-15, 12:03 PM

When cleaning his cage what do you uses?

dave himself · 08-30-15, 02:22 PM

First of all let me apologise if you think for I minute that I'm having a go at you for your husbandry that is definitely not the case. The only reason I said the reason for the viv was that most ball python breeders keep their snakes in tubs in rack systems in which they seem to thrive, and our little guy seems to be a bit of an odd ball so to speak

dave himself · 08-30-15, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minkness

This may sound like a silly question...how is a viv different than any other type of set up?

In a viv there's more exposure to the outside world for the animal, and all glass tanks are even worse. We've had young burmese pythons that have went complete of there food when we've moved them from tubs to vivs, so we've had to cover the glass with paper and tear strips off in stages until they have built up enough confidence. Some snakes and lizards seem to thrive in some set-ups and others don't, I've only been keeping snakes for around 10 years and I know very little and find out something new every day

pet_snake_78 · 08-30-15, 09:00 PM

I have some snakes that just won't take frozen sometimes, no big deal just give a live meal or two then try again.

bigsnakegirl785 · 08-31-15, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marvelfreak

When cleaning his cage what do you uses?

Diluted vinegar or bleach. It is then allowed to soak for an hour or two, then rinsed several times to be sure it's clean. I wash his tub like this after every full substrate change, which is about every 3-4 months. Otherwise I just wipe it down with soap and water.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dave himself

First of all let me apologise if you think for I minute that I'm having a go at you for your husbandry that is definitely not the case. The only reason I said the reason for the viv was that most ball python breeders keep their snakes in tubs in rack systems in which they seem to thrive, and our little guy seems to be a bit of an odd ball so to speak

Oh I don't think that at all! He's thrived in every sort of enclosure I've kept him in, it's just when a stress event triggers him or his pickiness kicks in there's nothing I can do. He ate for at least 9 months straight in his current set up before refusing when I began offering rats again. He ate one single rat and then hasn't eaten even a mouse since.

I may hold off on the vet and try to give him live during the week, if he refuses or shows no signs of gaining weight back, then vet it is. I'm still rather undecided on that front, I don't trust vets too much and would prefer to use them only if I had no other choice or really trusted them. I'd like to know the vet in town before I took him there. :/ My other vet isn't a snake expert, so he could only do the basics, which is why I'd use a new vet.

dave himself · 08-31-15, 02:07 AM

I would definitely try live feeding him to see if it will kick starts him. I've seen this work so many times in the past with stubborn feeders

Albert Clark · 08-31-15, 09:52 AM

Hey bsg, me again. I have a pied male right now that is stuck on live mice. He's never taken a f/t anything. I used to sweat it and feel like I had to make him switch but you know what? These guys are captives and we should at least give them what they like to eat if it becomes problematic. Were you able to read that article by Colin Weaver? "The enigmatic ball python appetite" ? Don't forget what I typed to you b4. Good luck. I'm sorry, my pied has taken f/t b4 when he was younger , it was f/t day old chicks. That was the only time.