Can humidity be too high?

[jarich]

I agree, it's refreshing to have a discussion instead of a pissing contest. Thanks for the discussion.

You're right in saying the bioactive environment allows various inhabitants, that are often seen as bad, to live within the cycle. However, its important to remember that in a balanced system they both live together and are adapted to do so. Healthy animals often have coccidia. It's not a problem though as its kept in check by their immune system. It's only when something else hinders their immune system that it can become problematic. It's important to remember that these animals have evolved in symbiosis with these parasites, to the point where normal digestive function is aided, and even in some cases reliant on this connection. There are reptiles that actually require exposure to adults faeces in order to survive or thrive. Perhaps more than we realize.

As for your other point about the soil, I don't think it really is that rare once it's set up well. And admittedly that's the kicker. I really think that aquarium water is the best analogy. With fish tanks, it's become normal and we'll understood, so the process is easily taught. I don't know why soil can't be the same. It's really not that difficult, and realistically it's much simpler over time than constant sterilization. Once that nitrogen cycle is stable, keeping it going is just habit, or even just timers. If I'm totally honest, my longest running bioactive enclosure is mostly timers, with me just adding leaf litter sometimes and occasionally turning the soil.

The other thing to remember is that these things are adapted to hardship. The plants, soil, animals etc that are part of this cycle are forgiving to our shortfalls as keepers because nature is much less forgiving and regular. I have mister systems and timers for heat and lighting so that it's a regular system that all grows together. Nature is full of droughts, floods, heat waves and such that make our shortcomings generally within reason as long as it's not too extreme or too long. Most house plants are quite resilient, as are most common reptiles. Not that we should rely on this, but it means if your soil pH drops for a short time, it's not the end of the world. And indeed, with a deeper substrate, like with a bigger fish tank, these things are less likely to fluctuate. As a counterpoint, I'd say nature is resilient, and will fight to survive. Our toughest job is to keep from killing it.

It's the one feature of de Vosjoli's book I slightly disagree with. He recommended a soil of 4-6". I'd say the deeper the better. While the deeper soil will get less aeration, so is more likely to become balanced towards the anaerobic bacteria, the depth allows for less fluctuations in moisture, pH and therefore general soil health. I think a soil of around 8-10" is a good minimum to maintain.

Regarding your last point, have you looked at the Biology of the Reptilia series edited by Carl Gans? It's absolutely revealing and I think one of the best collected works on the internal workings of these animals available. They've made online access absolutely free now and I couldn't possibly suggest anything more. I wish I would've had access to it decades ago! Here's the link:

Biology of the Reptilia: Table of Contents - Gans Collections and Charitable Fund

[ARCH3R]

I see a lot of what you're trying to say. There are very few forms of bacteria in those symbiotic categories. In aquariums the use of cyanobacteria, most commonly algae, are true mutualistic symbiotes with the coral due to their nitrogen fixation. This is part of what balances an aquarium so well, but the process is arguably more complex on land.You're confusing symbiosis with benefit, but in many cases it's harmful, especially to the host of the parasites.

A pH imbalance is only something that you'll notice if you're plants are sensitive to it. Furthermore pH is not the only reason that most people change out soil. Low potassium, nitrogen, or phosphorous should be affecting it. If not growth or color than perhaps bloom. Think of water, although resources are cycled you'll eventually need more to be added.

I browsed the Carl Gans book just now, although it seems very informative I'm not sure how it is pertinent to the discussion. I was saying how little was known about the reptile immune system, ad this book doesn't cover it.

[Sasha2]

It sounds very much like taking care of a tank full of fish. Not sure how to check ph of soil. I will have to do some research on that. We have very hard water here and it makes everything have a higher PH.
I dont even try and pretend to be scientist or even remotely smart. However I do read alot and I did come across the CO2/O2 problems with a tank full of plants and little ventilation.

I may or may not be getting in over my head but am going to try it anyway. Im Wondering if the BRB is the best candidate for this "experiment".
Perhaps buying a few geckos or a smaller species like a garter might be a better choice. Or the Nelsons milksnake, he is pretty small still but he was already in the wild for a month when he escaped and we found him out in the shed on the far side of our property.

[ARCH3R]

I'm assuming the C02/02 problem you're talking about is too little C02 for photosynthesis to occur?

If you do attempt it though keep a journal. Food schedule growth rate health problems. It'd be awesome to see if it really does benefit them. It's entirely possible I just haven't seen any evidence of it.

[jarich]

Originally Posted by ARCH3R

I see a lot of what you're trying to say. There are very few forms of bacteria in those symbiotic categories. In aquariums the use of cyanobacteria, most commonly algae, are true mutualistic symbiotes with the coral due to their nitrogen fixation. This is part of what balances an aquarium so well, but the process is arguably more complex on land.You're confusing symbiosis with benefit, but in many cases it's harmful, especially to the host of the parasites.

A pH imbalance is only something that you'll notice if you're plants are sensitive to it. Furthermore pH is not the only reason that most people change out soil. Low potassium, nitrogen, or phosphorous should be affecting it. If not growth or color than perhaps bloom. Think of water, although resources are cycled you'll eventually need more to be added.

I browsed the Carl Gans book just now, although it seems very informative I'm not sure how it is pertinent to the discussion. I was saying how little was known about the reptile immune system, ad this book doesn't cover it.

I think you might have browsed a bit too quickly. There are 22 very large volumes all pertaining specifically to the biology of reptiles. Immunity is fully covered as are all major biological systems, in minute detail. Reptiles are actually one of the most studied animal groups there are, and at one time it was a close race as to which would become the common lab animal used in science. Its sort of only a fluke that labs use mice now instead of anoles or other small lizards. An interesting historical read if you are curious.

As for the symbiotic parasites, thats just it, there are more than you think, and probably more positive benefits than were previously thought. We were taught to think that all parasites were bad and should be eradicated immediately, but the more we understand the intricate relationships involved, the more it seems that there are benefits to many of them, or at the very least, not many problems. The problems are usually to do with us as keepers and how we mess up the balance of reptile's immune or other systems, and the resulting parasite blooms. Its sort of like saying that cane toads are bad because of what happened in Australia. But cane toads arent bad, they were just taken out of their natural habitat and bloomed uncontrollably.

As for the soil, actually what you describe with cyanobacteria and nitrogen fixing also happens in soil around plant roots. Soil is a bit trickier than water as it doesnt move the same way, so maybe more like a salt water aquarium than a freshwater one in complexity. However, its not so much adding more, but just turning the soil that fixes that problem usually. Like I said, the first bioactive enclosure I made had nothing added to the soil for years. I just took it apart yesterday as I upgraded my GTP to a larger enclosure. The plants were still growing happily, and the soil still smelled wonderful. I actually 'seeded' a couple of my other enclosures with it.

This will sounds sort of cheesy I know (but I dont care as Im a huge Jurassic Park fan) but life finds a way. You bring in dirt and plants and bugs and its pretty hard to kill it if you keep it maintained.

[ARCH3R]

Actually animal testing is something I'm very familiar on and have never even heard of reptiles being in a close race. I have to entirely disagree that reptiles are the most highly studied. Billions upon billions have been spent on rodent studies due to their genetic similiarities, rapid breeding rates, similar physiological responses to stressors etc. This is money that has never been available to reptile studies and quite frankly never will, unless of course, Jurassic Park becomes a reality. My first board accepted study had me pleading with a pharmacology company, trying to convince them of the monetary gains that could be seen.

Anyways, what I'm trying to say is that nearly everything you've said could be true. However all good research I've seen doesn't seem to support it at this time. Namely lifespan, illness rates and growth in traditionally kept animals (sterile environments) compared to others.

[jarich]

Again, I didnt say reptiles were the most highly studied, merely that they are one of the most studied groups. That reptiles were so broadly used in research in the past is only something Im familiar with as I researched further and further back in time. Mice being used as the standard in lab testing isnt something that has always been the norm. Mice are used because they are cheap, breed quickly and are fairly rugged. Which is what anoles are too, and why they were both used for quite some time. Anoles have been a lab test subject for about a hundred years. Like I said, that mice are now the norm is partly (not totally) a bit of a fluke.

As for the good research you speak of, what studies have you seen regarding lifespan/illness/growth rates in sterile environments versus bioactive ones? The closest I have ever read came from The Health and Welfare of Captive Reptiles by Warwick, et al 2001. A great read if you have the time. In it they describe the variation in these different types of housed reptiles and the seeming benefit in more naturalistic enclosures.

I see you have an ackie. Do you keep it in a sterile environment?

[ARCH3R]

As for the Ackie, yes I do, sort of. I keep her on paper towels with a step ladder setup for heat and I clean her cage weekly. However, she has a 20 gallon nesting box thats kept very damp for burrowing. That gets changed out about every six months.This allows for all the naturalistic burrowing and damp burrows along with HIGH temps.