Ethics of snake food...

[Shann]

Originally Posted by kuester

I know my dog and my corn snake.i trained my dogs from a very young age to accept the snakes. So maybe for people who dont train their dog properly (majority of people now a days) or people who think they know their dogs but dont. Also i dont leave them alone. Im there the whole time. I know i wont ever lose a snake because of my dogs. And i grew my corn from a 8in baby on frozen at 12 y/o hes 5'9"

So you think if your snake bites your dog it is just going to stand there and take it? I had a very well trained dog. I would trust that dog with anything. But I still wouldn't let my snake out around him. Why run the risk? And even beyond that, what if the snake fell and was stepped on? I just don't see the point. All risk, no reward, as the only affection the snake feels is imagined by the keeper.

[RAD House]

I in no way condone letting your snake hanging around your dogs neck or leaving them around with out you physically holding the snake. I do see some benefit in allowing your dogs to socialize with the snakes for dog training purposes. For example should my snakes ever escape I want my dogs to know they are not food or a toy. Unfortunately they only way to make this connection for a dog is smell and reinforcement.

[reptiledude987]

Originally Posted by MesoCorney

I in no way condone letting your snake hanging around your dogs neck or leaving them around with out you physically holding the snake. I do see some benefit in allowing your dogs to socialize with the snakes for dog training purposes. For example should my snakes ever escape I want my dogs to know they are not food or a toy. Unfortunately they only way to make this connection for a dog is smell and reinforcement.

I agree with this. I allowed my dog to socialize around the reptiles only enough for her to know theyre not a threat to her or a toy. With the slim hope that if any ever escaped she may be helpful in finding them without killing them to show that she found it. However when my nile was around 9 months old it was wandering the house somewhere I couldnt find it for a little better than a month and she was useless at tracking it. She was a boxer rottweiler cross no not a tracking breed in the first place. Point is having any further interaction between snake and dog beyond teaching the dog not to try to attack the snake is a bad idea.

[kuester]

Like i said originally they usually sleep together. Occasionally he'll wrap around my dogs neck. I know what it looks like if the snakes going to let go and would prevent it if it ever came to that. Also my snakes never been aggressive towards anythiny so i doubt hed bite and even if he did i doubt it would phase my dog. And my dog doesnt as much as move an inch without looking to me for permission. Literally he looks to me for permission to get up, go outside and even to go get some food/water.

You guys can think its a bad idea, but nothing bad will ever happen i can guarantee it and if something ever does ill be sure to post on here saying i know you all told me so.

But why are we going on about my life choices when theyre my decision to make when this post is about ethics of snake food? Please get off my back im not changing my ways and my beliefs for people i dont know.

[RAD House]

I don't think anyone here wants to be proven right in this case as your pets will be the ones who are punished not you. You are opperating as if nothing could ever go wrong and that is just not realistic. No one here pretends to know your situation, they are just saying it is not worth the risk. No mater how well you train a dog you will never completely destroy instinct.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by kuester

Like i said originally they usually sleep together. Occasionally he'll wrap around my dogs neck. I know what it looks like if the snakes going to let go and would prevent it if it ever came to that. Also my snakes never been aggressive towards anythiny so i doubt hed bite and even if he did i doubt it would phase my dog. And my dog doesnt as much as move an inch without looking to me for permission. Literally he looks to me for permission to get up, go outside and even to go get some food/water.

You guys can think its a bad idea, but nothing bad will ever happen i can guarantee it and if something ever does ill be sure to post on here saying i know you all told me so.

But why are we going on about my life choices when theyre my decision to make when this post is about ethics of snake food? Please get off my back im not changing my ways and my beliefs for people i dont know.

1. I believe most people are putting out their opinions on this matter as hopefully anyone new reading this thread realizes it's a huge risk and do not follow in your foot steps.

2. I wonder the same thing as you. Why is this discussion about ethics of snake food and you bring up the idea of your dog and snake hanging out? Do they eat from the same bowl? Other than that I don't see the connection...

[kuester]

Yes everyone else can do things their way i was stating my situation. The guy who started the thread stated that rats bond, feel pain and enjoy happiness i was just relating snakes to the same thing.

[bigsnakegirl785]

Originally Posted by kuester

I know my dog and my corn snake.i trained my dogs from a very young age to accept the snakes. So maybe for people who dont train their dog properly (majority of people now a days) or people who think they know their dogs but dont. Also i dont leave them alone. Im there the whole time. I know i wont ever lose a snake because of my dogs. And i grew my corn from a 8in baby on frozen at 12 y/o hes 5'9"

Originally Posted by kuester

My snake holds around my dogs neck and rides around. Ive even taking him like a walk like this before. You can all be incorrect abouy my specific situation. But ive been socializing my dogs and snakes for 7 years. My dogs wont even harm frogs and toads outside becausr ive trained them to be nice to small creatures and reps. My doberman is actually intimidated by cats, even at 90 lbs.

Originally Posted by kuester

Millertime89 i know youre a forum moderator so no disrespect but you are inccorect in my case. I know my animals very well and i will not stop doing what ive been doing and i will not stop believing what i believe because you say different. I know what im doing and what my pets are doing. My apologies but its my choices and i promise i wont lose any animals.

Doesn't matter. You cannot predict any animal, no matter how "well trained" or socialized it may be. It is a living being, there is no predicting it or trusting it not to follow its instincts 100% of the time. You are putting your snakes in a very dangerous situation, and if you had a giant, you'd be putting your dog into a very dangerous situation as well. This is highly irresponsible, and it's not a matter of "if" you lose a pet from these interactions, but "when."

Even with you right there, it just takes a split second and one of your snakes could be in that dog's mouth.

[Jrich]

I don't know about everyone else but I feel satisfied when feeding my snakes f/t rodents. My snakes have to eat and I am providing them food in the safest way possible just like how a mother feels when she is feeding her children a delicious nutritious chicken dinner. Lol! That being said I don't know why people get so entangled in the idea that snakes "bond" or have "lovey dovey" feelings because they don't. I also don't understand why people get upset over this concept either because at the end of the day snakes are truly fascinating creatures and have a lot to teach us and are very rewarding to care for. It's so cool to be able to understand and care for an animal much different than yourself.

[D Grade]

Originally Posted by pet_snake_78

I do cringe when I see the stereotypical video feed of someone feeding live to the tune of a Screamo band. It's pretty well accepted that snakes should be on F/t when possible for the benefit of all involved. However, when people become so far from the sources of our food, as most are today, we begin to become divorced from the reality of the food chain. Just by existing every human on earth is killing thousands of animals. The house you live in has killed dozens of animals when being built and prevented hundreds of others from having a place to be born and live. The roads you drive on kill and injure tens of thousands of animals daily.. right now there are deer with broken legs waiting to die, turtles about to be smashed by oncoming traffic, etc. Right now there are chickens being killed so you can eat. Cows will be slaughtered today and the meat hung on a hook. SO in retrospect, do I think feeding a thawed mouse to a snake is a moral issue... no way.

Even if you don't eat meat, you will kill thousands of animals. Pesticides, land clear, tractors chopping animals to pieces, water being taken from wildlife habitat and sprayed onto monocultured fields designed specifically to prevent any type of ecosystem from living in there so the plants can maximize their enegy, etc. There is no way any human can exist without resulting in the death of thousands if not millions of other animals in his or her lifetime.

Originally Posted by Albert Clark

Mice and rats have been wreaking havoc on populations throughout history. They spread diseases and destroy crops. They have been a scourge and a danger to infants and children in inner cities for eons. Oh, they do have cute faces and the ability to have higher brain functions but look at the motis operandi of rodents. They live in filth and are always creating enviornments that turn into cesspools and breeding grounds for disease. Reptiles have been keeping rodent populations in check for years and that is a good thing. As well, the kingsnakes deserve credit for the way they keep rattlesnake populations down. Rattlesnakes bite a lot of people adult and child alike. They cause death and disability across the world. What would this world be like without reptiles in general? I shudder to think......

Best two responses in this thread.

Originally Posted by prairiepanda

To be honest, the one that bothers me the most is the cat food. I really have no idea how those meat animals are treated. Unfortunately I don't really have a choice because my cat requires a prescription diet. Otherwise I would be just as picky with her food as with everyone else's. But I'm not going to disown my cat because of questionable meat sources. I know even ethical farms cause other animals to suffer via habitat destruction, so I can't really escape that anyway.

Cat and dog food companies buy their "meal" in bulk from rendering plants. I used to work at one so Ill tell you whats in dog and cat food and hopefully persuade you and everyone here not to ever eat cat or dog food and to never let your kids get into it and decide to try it. Heres a list of everything that goes into dog and cat food.

- Spoiled or expired meats from grocery stores (beef, chicken, seafood, etc)
- Expired meats from fast food chains
- Dead livestock (cows, horses, etc)
- Road kill

So how does it work? Believe it or not there are people who specialize in removing dead livestock from farms and ranches for a living. They are paid by the people to come remove them and then are paid by the rendering plant by the pound for what they bring in. Since that is the case, they will pick up road kill along the way to gain every precious pound for the money. The rendering plants receive these dead animals rotting, decayed, rigamortis (spelling), and occasionally freshly dead. They're thrown into a grinder (full bowels and full bladders as-is). Next, the trucks from grocery stores and fast food chains show up and unload hundreds of pounds of expired meats of all types that the rendering plant buys discounted, they are also thrown into that same grinder. Everything is then sent into a large cooker and ground into a powder. The rendering plant then sells that ground powder to massive cat and dog food chains like Purina, Friskies, Fancy Feast, etc for a large profit. The food chains then add artificial flavoring they desire and mold the powder into whatever little fancy shape they want.

And that folks is where cat and dog food come from. And yes, it was one of the most disgusting jobs Ive ever had.

[Minkness]

Jeezus O.O

I could have lived the rest of my life not knowing this. x_x

[prairiepanda]

Originally Posted by D Grade

Best two responses in this thread.



Cat and dog food companies buy their "meal" in bulk from rendering plants. I used to work at one so Ill tell you whats in dog and cat food and hopefully persuade you and everyone here not to ever eat cat or dog food and to never let your kids get into it and decide to try it. Heres a list of everything that goes into dog and cat food.

- Spoiled or expired meats from grocery stores (beef, chicken, seafood, etc)
- Expired meats from fast food chains
- Dead livestock (cows, horses, etc)
- Road kill

So how does it work? Believe it or not there are people who specialize in removing dead livestock from farms and ranches for a living. They are paid by the people to come remove them and then are paid by the rendering plant by the pound for what they bring in. Since that is the case, they will pick up road kill along the way to gain every precious pound for the money. The rendering plants receive these dead animals rotting, decayed, rigamortis (spelling), and occasionally freshly dead. They're thrown into a grinder (full bowels and full bladders as-is). Next, the trucks from grocery stores and fast food chains show up and unload hundreds of pounds of expired meats of all types that the rendering plant buys discounted, they are also thrown into that same grinder. Everything is then sent into a large cooker and ground into a powder. The rendering plant then sells that ground powder to massive cat and dog food chains like Purina, Friskies, Fancy Feast, etc for a large profit. The food chains then add artificial flavoring they desire and mold the powder into whatever little fancy shape they want.

And that folks is where cat and dog food come from. And yes, it was one of the most disgusting jobs Ive ever had.

I'm aware of such meat rendering plants, but I was under the impression that the slurries and powders resulting from that process went elsewhere. After all, if the meat in pet food came from some horrible almagamation of mystery animals, how could they list the ingredients by weight? Many pet foods now are listed as safe for human consumption, so they must adhere to the same food safety standards as our own food. I'm sure plenty of the poultry, fish, rabbit, etc. in my cat's food comes from sources that treat their animals poorly, but I would not expect any to come from a mystery meat rendering plant. I might have believed that back before pet foods become so strictly regulated, but not now. Pet food manufacturers can't legally list "chicken" as an ingredient when they really mean "powdered deer, cow, skunk, horse, etc." Even "chicken by-product meal" has restrictions on what it can contain, and honestly I wouldn't be disturbed at all to see it as an ingredient in human foods even though it looks nasty when they're making it. It's still edible and nutritious.

Expired grocery store meat? Maybe. But I eat that too because it's mega cheap.

[jjhill001]

Originally Posted by MDT

Kyle hit the nail on the head.....opinion is one thing. Such as "I don't like frozen rats, it seems they don't have the same nutritional value as fresh."

versus... "I don't like frozen rats, they DO NOT have the same nutritional value as fresh".

One can have an opinion, that's fine. But you gotta be ready to revise your opinion when evidence exists to counter that in a factual basis. The facts are, that freezing a rat (or broccoli or peas or a rib eye) do not change the nutritional status to the point that you can quantify it without the aid of extremely sophisticated bio-assays. Practically speaking, it simply does not matter. So for a "care sheet" to spout this is not responsible.

There will always be Hucksters that will try to peddle pablum like this....(The Food Babe, Dr. Oz to name a couple)....

But the red statement is literally true. Because it changes. Not as much as presented by the author but it is different.

[RAD House]

It doesn't change enough to be concerned about, and definitely not enough to endanger the snakes health.

[MDT]

Originally Posted by MesoCorney

It doesn't change enough to be concerned about, and definitely not enough to endanger the snakes health.

This.....absolutely this.

freezing *may* change some of the water soluble vitamins.... a little..

i would love to see some scientific data on why frozen food is icky and fresh food is tha bomb.

not to include "men's health magazine", "woman's day", "good houskeeping", "the new york post", "the food babe or ANY internet pseudoscience blogger", or Dr. Oz"...