Herps you don't think should be kept as pets?

[FWK]

Well said StudentoReptile, although in stark contrast to opinions you previously expressed, finally some common ground. I deal with so many paranoid, fundamentally anti-American, government hating nut jobs in the firearm community that I may be a bit quick to judge, but I do not think I misread you. I had a pretty good idea of who you were by the way you express yourself. In the past couple of days I've done a bit of digging and to my delight I was able to confirm most of my inklings.

From this thread:

Originally Posted by StudentoReptile

The bottom line is that this hobby HAS infringed upon on others.

Originally Posted by StudentoReptile

It only stands to reason that owning and caring for a large and/or venomous animal should require a licensing system as well.

Originally Posted by StudentoReptile

I even think large lizard species like iguanas and monitors should be regulated, but I know that's going to be a hard sell (especially iguanas).

You are clearly, by these statements at least, pro-regulation and not just willing to compromise. The first rule of war is to know your enemy. You insist the government is the enemy here but I know that you know better. I know you know better because I've been able to track down (not that is was difficult) and read many years worth of your blogs and other random postings on a variety of sites. You have said most everything I have said in this thread yourself in the past. So either your opinions have changed over the years, you are simply argumentative and/or enjoy a debate for the sake of debate (which I understand, I enjoy a good debate myself) or you actually on some level believe that people should not have the right to keep (I have a few ideas as to which and why but I am pretty sure you are going to clear it up for me shortly).

I am sure now that you and I stand on the same fundamentals on this matter (by and large at least and despite the quotes above) and will refrain from discussing these issues any further with you in this thread. I think I've made my opinions here clear, I'd like to hear from more of the community and will clear the floor.

[aaron_cg]

Originally Posted by red ink

A licensing system for ALL reptiles isn't that bad... we still survive.

On an interesting point... there's an addendum added to our license requirements. We are legally bound to keep any reptile we purchase on license for 6 months.

Why would this be of any interest?

I sold one of my geckos to a kid last Saturday... guess which gecko appeared in an advert fro a $100 more than they paid on Sunday night?

The kid has now been caught out on it and no one would deal with him from now on for "flipping" once it got out on one of the forums that he did that. He has since taken the ad down but if a sale did go through from he ad then he would have been liable to have his license stripped and his animals confiscated by the governing body for a breach of his license conditions.

The six month moratorium also stops impulse buying from pet shops... as well as the fact that a pets hop will not sell you a reptile if you are not licensed (pet shops themselves are licensed therefore the care fall under regulatory restrictions - which we can inform the govt. Say... if the BDs don't have a basking light etc etc and they will get a visit from the governing body to check that they are providing the regulatory care, usually results in a fine if found to be in breach). Neither can you legally as a breeder sell to an unlicensed person as all transactions are recorded in a record book and we send a census back to the regulatory body each year off all our trades and transactions plus the exact numbers of animals and species we currently have.

As far as the info of numbers of keepers Vs what the info can be used for by the govt or animal rights activist?

Imagine the lobbying power the shear numbers of reptile keepers can have with the govt if they had cold hard facts of the numbers (not to mention the revenue they could make from licensing fees).

I like this idea, with a few modifications...

For example, I am a partner with my local SPCA as a reptile rescue. I have access to a vet who checks out the animal, and once it is cleared by him, and gets a few meals in him, I rehome them.

Now, I make sure whoever is getting them, understands the care for the animals, and if need be, has the proper permits. In Texas you need a Controlled Exotic Snake Permit to legally own a retic, burm, anaconda, or rock python, as well as any non native hots.

I also warn them that if I see the animal being flipped on Craigslist, I will be able to confiscate the animal. All is legally binding with a contract that I had a lawyer friend make for me. So far, no issues.

[Sublimeballs]

Originally Posted by StudentoReptile

This thread also begs the question/debate of rights vs privileges.

Since when did it become established that people felt they were entitled to own or possess any animal they please? [see various definitions for the word "right" (noun)]

Versus a privilege, which in reality, is what this is. We got this, free of charge, decades ago, but now, we've done a piss-poor job of maintaining it, and slowly, we're are getting these privileges taken away [Ex: take any recent state or federal legislative action against the possession of exotic pets or reptiles specifically].

Bottom line: you have a right to free speech, to an education, to food, water, shelter, to reproduce, to proper housing, to vote, to freedom (as opposed to slavery), etc. and so on. These are amenities and civil rights as a sentient being in a free world.

Everything else, such as cars (or specifically the license to operate one), guns, or pets, are luxuries. You do not require them to survive, and the first two, if not used properly, are (obviously) hazardous. Thus, a licensing system is in place, and if you abuse the privilege of owning and operating one, you get the privilege revoked (among other things).

It only stands to reason that owning and caring for a large and/or venomous animal should require a licensing system as well. Not only if you do not maintain the animal properly, there is a welfare issue to be considered, but if the animal is not securely contained or handled properly, there is again, a risk of hazard. If you abuse the privilege, and you or another human being (or someone else's pet) gets injured or killed by your animal, then your privilege should be revoked.

This is why this is touchy topic, but this is my opinion. Its that simple. Its doesn't take much to get a driver's license, or a gun permit, or a hunter's license, or boater's license, etc.....but you mess up, you lose it and pay the consequences and become another statistic. It should be no different for croc, hots or giant snakes.

Very well put.

Also there has been an incident with an escaped hot biting someone. I posted it not too long ago. Green mamba got someone in Florida.

[SSSSnakes]

Originally Posted by Sublimeballs

Very well put.

Also there has been an incident with an escaped hot biting someone. I posted it not too long ago. Green mamba got someone in Florida.

Fla has training and licensing requirements. I guess no matter what you do, you still are not going to weed out the idiots.

[SSSSnakes]

I've been in the snake business for over 35 years, and lets face it, all the bans and licensing is not going to stop people from owning what they want. Most of us know of people with illegal reptiles and we say nothing. Even the regulating agencies look the other way, unless it makes headlines. When something becomes banned, then an underground market opens up increasing the price of the reptile. Having the government regulate us is not the answer. We need to regulate each other. Stop selling HOTs and giants to just anyone. Make sure the person buying the snake is capable of properly taking care of it. Our own industry is at fault, because most of the people who sell reptiles don't care who buys them just as long as they make money. Lets be honest with ourselves, we know this is true.

When I go to Hamburg, PA expo and buy HOTs, no one ever asked what state I live in, or if I have a license. They just want the sale. I sent a friend who was 18 years old last time to the expo to pick up a cobra for me and they never ever questioned his age. The only person to ever question me and want to see my license was a private dealer that I purchase HOTs from his house. He is the example of the people who regulate each other, and we need more like him.

[StudentoReptile]

Originally Posted by FWK

You are clearly, by these statements at least, pro-regulation and not just willing to compromise. The first rule of war is to know your enemy. You insist the government is the enemy here but I know that you know better.

Yep.

So either your opinions have changed over the years, you are simply argumentative and/or enjoy a debate for the sake of debate (which I understand, I enjoy a good debate myself) or you actually on some level believe that people should not have the right to keep

Actually, all three are true.
1.) Yes, my opinions have changed some over the yrs. I was once very pro-herp-keeping rights, and pro-USARK, and anti-regulation, etc. The more I observe the past few yrs and the more I research I have in the past 3-4 yrs has changed my views on the hobby and industry. I know it is very pessimistic, but someone tell me I am wrong. I know there are good people out there, but they are in a tight minority. The vast majority is greed-driven and product-driven (much like the rest of our society and world).
2.) Yes, I like to argue for the heck of it, and sometimes, I can easily argue both sides of a debate, too!
3.) As mentioned above, I do not believe a person has a "right" or entitlement to possess or keep any animal just because they happen to like that particular animal.
---

All in all, good thread, and I hope it got some people thinking.

In the big picture, changes will not happen unless enough people rally together and work toward those goals. Of course, irresponsible keepers will still make bad decisions, which will always reflect poorly on the entire hobby. Unfortunately, as long as [most] hobbyists are being REACTIVE: only focused on protecting their "right" to keep genetic mutations and giant snakes, etc, and keep going on buying/selling snakes, while not being PROACTIVE: also doing education, being aware of conservation, and trying to protect our ability to keep other species (native, etc)....no one's really helping, are they?
---

Here's some more food for thought...

A photo circulated the web recently depicting a truckload of Uromastyx lizards collected and killed, allegedly for bushmeat. The herp community went nuts, claiming it was BS, and the lizards were collected for novelty or whatever, and even if they were used for bushmeat, how come there is no regulation on the numbers collected to help conserve that species of Uromastyx?

My question is: how is that any different than what we do for ball pythons? We collect and import thousands of BPs every yrs with no regulation, all in the name of the pet trade. Where's the conservation going on in the ball market?

[note: I have a ball python that I've had for over 25 yrs. He's the only one I have, and I don't breed them and never plan to own any more. Just wanted to say I'm not trying to knock the BP market - just using it as an example. If you prefer, insert any other popular species in its place such as leopard geckos, etc]

[Georgia]

Heres my stand...

1. If you are old enough to go to war for your country...you can keep any snake/reptile you see fit.

2. You can argue that they can escape and bite someone...well a car can "escape" and run you over everytime you walk outside.

There is far more dangerous things out there than a snake or lizard. Whats the difference when in almost every state there is venomous snakes in the wild? You can still get bit.

Its all about our government controlling us and making money on it in the process.

[Georgia]

I will never bow down to TYRANTS who seek to trample my liberties as a free AMERICAN citizen....

[Georgia]

@StudentoReptile

WHO is to say I dont have the right? A supreme ruler? A God? Or just another power hungry politician who is under the false impression that they ARE the law? Sorry, not gonna happen. I WILL NOT be ran over by legislation. Throw me in jail...ill bond out and still keep my snakes. YES i am entitled to keep them. Some of us fought for the right to have freedom to do so and will fight again to keep it that way.

[EL Ziggy]

And what gives anyone the right to own and possess any creature? It's is not a right. It's a privilege and a responsibility to keep and care for an animal. We are not their owners or masters. Their right to live freely supercedes our desire to keep them in captivity. No matter how well we treat them or how much we may even love them, we are imposing our will on them aren't we? Are they not enslaved? If given the choice they would be free of all of us. We talk about how the big bad government is trying to trample/tread on our liberties and freedoms but not in the ways that matter most. Like allowing the all powerful billionaires and corporations to steal and hoard our collective wealth while ruling and destroying our planet with their greed, pollution and wars. And tell me again what you're going to fight the mighty governmental war machine with? AR's, shotguns, and pistols vs. omnipresent surveillance, missles, drones, bombs, chemical and biological weapons doesn't sound like much of a fight to me. We are a nation of laws and laws are required in any civilized society otherwise there will be chaos and anarchy. We can't all just do whatever we want, whenever we want, however we want without concern for the greater common good. There are rules in life. In home, at school, at work and in society. The problem is the leaders WE appoint and elect and the laws they're implementing at the commands of their real masters. In order for that to change WE have to do that through better education, personal responsibility, elections and effective legislation.

[Georgia]

To address your question...man has dominion over all creatures of the Earth. You can do as you see fit.

[EL Ziggy]

Originally Posted by Georgia

To address your question...man has dominion over all creatures of the Earth. You can do as you see fit.

Really, says who?

[SSSSnakes]

Originally Posted by EL-Ziggy

Really, says who?

Says GOD. And since we can not discuss religion on this forum, this should end this topic as it can only be a one sided topic because the mods. will remove it.

[EL Ziggy]

Originally Posted by SSSSnakes

Says GOD. And since we can not discuss religion on this forum, this should end this topic as it can only be a one sided topic because the mods. will remove it.

Really? GOD said that? Again, says who? And what GOD are you referring to? What else did this GOD say? Lets keep the church and state seperate please. You're right though this isn't the forum for that discussion. On that note I resign. Best wishes all.

[red ink]

A "God" also says his followers have the right to jihad... see what happens when you take and believe the words of Santa Clause, sorry I mean "a God" to suit your own agendas.