Varanids Counting and other intelligent things

[mdfmonitor]

Originally Posted by Snakey-Jay

Very impressive.. The sav in the first video, is that healthy? I don't keep varanids but it looks lethargic the way it drags it's body along rather than lifting to walk.

correct!! that's why i hate the vid, not the purpose.

[mdfmonitor]

My monitor will come to his name, especially now he's not been fed for two days!!


My monitor if fed 4 chicks on the run for about 4 days will look at me for a long time if fed 3 on the 5th day, this is why i swop food items around to stop the routine.

This is why i hide food items in the cage & still feed crickets even though he's 4.5 long, keep him looking & working for food.

I nearly got you a vid showing Lenny going in the direction on command, I've got him to do it a 3/3 times regularly, say forward he'll look forward & start walking forward & find a food reward, say behind he'd look behind & see or walk till he sees food reward, large locust worked best.

it is a case of catching him in the right mood, is he willing to corporate with me & certain food items worked best, he did it once off vid about 6/7 times, i've yet to film it, but i keeping having ago with it.

I'm sure he also watches my line of eye, because i'll look at insects that aren't moving that he can't see, i spend many hours just sat next to cage!!

the work out vid tests Lenny's brain & physical development, if the trap door was smoother & built better he'd open it every time for food, once he'd worked it out, no good to me i want those claws & forelimbs to work!!

you built a box & ticked all the boxes, now think what you can do to enhance their life experiences!!

[infernalis]

[SnakeyJay]

Originally Posted by formica

was also intrigued to see another Sav eagerly drinking from a bowl of water - and the slight glimpse of the enclosure suggests it may be very dry, looks like paper towel and cork hides?

lets try not to derail the thread tho...this particular area has been well gone over and established

It may be a "well gone over area" but it's more important than how intelligent they are... A dead monitor isn't very smart/intelligent lol..

Originally Posted by infernalis

You are not the first to notice.

I feel the same way as do others.

Never watched any of his vids before, the study seems interesting but at the expense of health?... Any way I'll stop de-railing the thread.

[formica]

we all know how important it is, there is no need for every thread about monitors to go over the same thing over and over, at the expense of the topic at hand

[formica]

Originally Posted by infernalis

nice, although thats a monitor searching for food, which doesnt quite test its intelligence in the same way, i dont think its any more demanding that say digging around in the ground, following a scent trail and scratching around in leaves




monitor called munchkin, lol

[formica]

Originally Posted by mdfmonitor

My monitor will come to his name, especially now he's not been fed for two days!!


My monitor if fed 4 chicks on the run for about 4 days will look at me for a long time if fed 3 on the 5th day, this is why i swop food items around to stop the routine.

This is why i hide food items in the cage & still feed crickets even though he's 4.5 long, keep him looking & working for food.

I nearly got you a vid showing Lenny going in the direction on command, I've got him to do it a 3/3 times regularly, say forward he'll look forward & start walking forward & find a food reward, say behind he'd look behind & see or walk till he sees food reward, large locust worked best.

it is a case of catching him in the right mood, is he willing to corporate with me & certain food items worked best, he did it once off vid about 6/7 times, i've yet to film it, but i keeping having ago with it.

I'm sure he also watches my line of eye, because i'll look at insects that aren't moving that he can't see, i spend many hours just sat next to cage!!

the work out vid tests Lenny's brain & physical development, if the trap door was smoother & built better he'd open it every time for food, once he'd worked it out, no good to me i want those claws & forelimbs to work!!

you built a box & ticked all the boxes, now think what you can do to enhance their life experiences!!

look forward to a video when you manage it!

I wonder if monitors can be click trained, i'm sure I read something about a similar technique somewhere with monitors

[Starbuck]

one of the methods they use to determine how intelligent a species is uses the recognition of self; they will paint a dot on an animals flank or forehead etc, and see if the animal sees the image in a mirror, recognizes that the image is 'self' and then investigates the dot.

While i personally think this test is selectively efficient for social animals, it may work for monitors. i think this would be really neat to see if monitors have this capacity; you could start by training them that if they touch a target (dot) they get food, then paint the target on the lizards side (or somewhere they could only see if the had a mirror, i.e. their chest?) and then see if the monitor makes an effort to touch the target on 'self' for the treat. The problem with monitors (and crows, and dolphins) is that they don't have hands or trunks (like chimps, people, and elephants) so it is more difficult to quantify an investigatory movement towards the dot vs. simple preening etc. i guess i'd have to do some more research, as I'm pretty sure dolphins and crows have 'passed' this test...

[formica]

Originally Posted by Starbuck

one of the methods they use to determine how intelligent a species is uses the recognition of self; they will paint a dot on an animals flank or forehead etc, and see if the animal sees the image in a mirror, recognizes that the image is 'self' and then investigates the dot.

While i personally think this test is selectively efficient for social animals, it may work for monitors. i think this would be really neat to see if monitors have this capacity; you could start by training them that if they touch a target (dot) they get food, then paint the target on the lizards side (or somewhere they could only see if the had a mirror, i.e. their chest?) and then see if the monitor makes an effort to touch the target on 'self' for the treat. The problem with monitors (and crows, and dolphins) is that they don't have hands or trunks (like chimps, people, and elephants) so it is more difficult to quantify an investigatory movement towards the dot vs. simple preening etc. i guess i'd have to do some more research, as I'm pretty sure dolphins and crows have 'passed' this test...

interesting, any suggestions for a safe paint to use?

monitors use their tongues to investigate things, that could potentially be a way to do it, they dont preen, so it should be obvious...but how do you paint a dot onto a monitor, without it realizing? so that it only spots it in a mirror...maybe it could be done while being distracted with a treat

I think cats do badly with this test aswel dont they?

[SnakeyJay]

Originally Posted by formica

we all know how important it is, there is no need for every thread about monitors to go over the same thing over and over, at the expense of the topic at hand

Fair enough, but as an outsider to varanid keeping I was just clarifying thing for my own benefit...

[Starbuck]

Originally Posted by formica

interesting, any suggestions for a safe paint to use?

monitors use their tongues to investigate things, that could potentially be a way to do it, they dont preen, so it should be obvious...but how do you paint a dot onto a monitor, without it realizing? so that it only spots it in a mirror...maybe it could be done while being distracted with a treat

I think cats do badly with this test aswel dont they?

a lot of 'intelligent' animals cannot pass, i think less than 60% of elephants pass the test, as well as dogs. Im not sure of a safe paint, but i think a human fingerpaint would be ok? or just a colored sticker... i'd have to look up the papers again to follow through on the study, but the main idea is that it has to be somewhere on the body that the animal can ONLY see it on a mirror, not just by turning their head (so i don't think a flank would work on a monitor). You can always apply the paint mark and wait for it to dry before doing the test, so the monitor no longer feels the wetness of the paint.

[Rob_H]

Magpies and jackdaws have passed the mirror test, after extensive habituation a mirror before the spot was added. Some work on keas is being done on it as well. The usual way is to stick the white spot just below the throat, so the bird cannot see it without the aid of a mirror. The normal way to control for the effect being simply due to the paint/spot is to simply use a black/camouflaged spot (which the birds couldn't see against their plumage).

Here's the paper: PLOS Biology: Mirror-Induced Behavior in the Magpie (Pica pica): Evidence of Self-Recognition

It would be a huge discovery if lizards were found to be capable of this!

[mdfmonitor]

Originally Posted by formica

nice, although thats a monitor searching for food, which doesnt quite test its intelligence in the same way, i dont think its any more demanding that say digging around in the ground, following a scent trail and scratching around in leaves




monitor called munchkin, lol

I think it's more on the lines of something different, a different experience with different safe material!

[mdfmonitor]

Originally Posted by formica

look forward to a video when you manage it!

I wonder if monitors can be click trained, i'm sure I read something about a similar technique somewhere with monitors

Had a go tonight, you can clearly see him look for food with his tongue & head direction when i say forward, but he may look for food at the right time to any verbal noise i make.

First he looked forward then he looked behind him which was the command i gave & he got the reward, he clicked what was going on & followed the next behind command straight away so he was facing in the right direction, i then had to give a forward command when his head was facing the right direction, he respond straight to the reward item.

I then had a food item about (locust medium) 3/4 foot way, thrown in earlier & gave the forward command, he looked but gave up because he couldn't see the item or he realised the viv door was open & he'd find bigger prey items there!! & he did (chick)

i then finished feeding another day old chick or two & closed the door, he went straight to the locust from earlier that he couldn't see in a dark area ( head pinched so they don't jump all over).

So did his logic & repetitive feeding override my command to go forward??

Not enough vid evidence at that, but enough to prove it worth keepers trying it with their mons!

[mdfmonitor]

Originally Posted by Rob_H

Magpies and jackdaws have passed the mirror test, after extensive habituation a mirror before the spot was added. Some work on keas is being done on it as well. The usual way is to stick the white spot just below the throat, so the bird cannot see it without the aid of a mirror. The normal way to control for the effect being simply due to the paint/spot is to simply use a black/camouflaged spot (which the birds couldn't see against their plumage).

Here's the paper: PLOS Biology: Mirror-Induced Behavior in the Magpie (Pica pica): Evidence of Self-Recognition

It would be a huge discovery if lizards were found to be capable of this!

Monitors as we know can live in social groups in the right setting, possibly the best monitor to try this on is one that hasn't been manhandled in it's life or one in a group that is the dominant animal, not sure how you'd put the dot on though lol!!

And you might still have to leave the room to film it, they usually behave different when your not eye balling them.