Please Help - Cat Bullying

[formica]

did you miss the word 'injure' when you read the description? and injury doesnt have to mean 3rd degree burns.

[Amadeus]

Originally Posted by formica

did you miss the word 'injure' when you read the description? and injury doesnt have to mean 3rd degree burns.

NOPE but is a shock collar injuring or annoying?. Could you explain how the Oxford dictionary is correct but the Merriam Webster dictionary is wrong? Or is that just how you dismiss peoples truths by finding a dictionary that has a definition more to your liking?

[formica]

Originally Posted by Amadeus

NOPE but is a shock collar injuring or annoying?. Could you explain how the Oxford dictionary is correct but the Merriam Webster dictionary is wrong? Or is that just how you dismiss peoples truths by finding a dictionary that has a definition more to your liking?

why do i need to explain how passing an electric current thru body tissue causes injury? seems to be fairly obvious, regardless of how small the current is.

Why dismiss your dictionary reference? because it misses out an important part of the description. and infact electrocution has nothing to do with execution, electrocution simply happens to be one method used in the barbaric practice of execution - i find it disturbing that execution is included, let alone used as the initial description of the word!

The Oxford Dictionary, is, the English language - i dont need any more reason than that to use it over any other dictionary

[Amadeus]

Originally Posted by formica

why do i need to explain how passing an electric current thru body tissue causes injury? seems to be fairly obvious, regardless of how small the current is.

Why dismiss your dictionary reference? because it misses out an important part of the description. and infact electrocution has nothing to do with execution, electrocution simply happens to be one method used in the barbaric practice of execution.

The Oxford Dictionary, is, the English language - i dont need any more reason than that to use it over any other dictionary

By your logic every time i would move any muscle in my body I'm doing harm. Do you happen to know that our body produces and has close to 10 watts flowing through it? How is the Oxford dictionary the English language? That's all you can say now that your arguments flaws have been addressed.

[formica]

Originally Posted by Amadeus

By your logic every time i would move any muscle in my body I'm doing harm. Do you happen to know that our body produces and has close to 10 watts flowing through it? How is the Oxford dictionary the English language? That's all you can say now that your arguments flaws have been addressed.

none of this has anything to do with my argument against negative reinforcement, the science speaks for itself - you are more interested in arguing semantics than address that particular issue and yes, I studied Human Biology.

[Abraxxos]

No the science does not. Guys. IT doesn't matter what the definition of electrocution is.. because these are not shock collars. FFS Formica, SERIOUSLY, read what I am saying. Not all e-collars are electrocuting or shock collars. He has a point formica, why won't you stop and think about it if you actually studied human biology (then again for all we know you could just be referring to the high school biology class we all took. Either way, the collar isn't dangerous or harmful or electrocution or shock. Listen. You have no arguement because your arguing something completely different. It does have to do with your talk of negative reinforcement because what we are doing isn't negative reinforcement. It's PROPER TRAINING. You went through the same thing in grade school. Do good get rewarded do bad get sent to the principal's office. Stop acting like it's torture.

"The e-collar they are referring to is totally different. They create a stimulation that is the same as a tense unit at the Chiropractic office which are used on humans, they are used to create an ANNOYANCE where as a shock collar is used to train AVOIDANCE of a behavior, area, action or thing. There is a huge difference between an e-collar used for training and a shock collar; those who use shock collars for training are using them for different things. The use of positive reinforcement IS necessary in training; however, it has to be balanced with negative reinforcement to teach what not to do. Its like raising a child. You cant give a child a piece of candy for everything the child does correct and simply ignore the wrong behaviors. An e-collar is a very minor reminder to behave, like a tap on the shoulder vs a full on punch, as a shock collar would be. THERE IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE IN AN E-COLLAR AND A SHOCK COLLAR." -A Professional Dog Trainer whom has success in many rehabilitation cases between full blow aggression to complete fear of everything and even your every day companion dog as well as service dogs.

Considering none of you are professional dog trainers... I think right there is a settlement.

[formica]

an e-collar is what is used to stop animals scratching themselves after surgery, it has nothing to do with training, i assume you are not talking about that - in which case the only training collars that I have come across either use electricity to shock the animal or they spray something in its face, if you can point me to something else than by all means let me know...

as for your assertion that negative reinforcement is useful, yes you can train anything by using negative reinforcement, and by that I mean pain, specifically - but - research has proven, that both in animals and humans, it does damage. Yes it has been done for thousands of years, but that doesnt make it the best way to train something/someone, the science has been done and shown that pain is not only unecessary, but it is ultimatly counter productive in both humans and animals.

I do not believe that training collars are painless, whether they are supposed to just be annoying or not - too many people are prepared to use corporal punshiment on animals because of the old adage 'spare the rod spoil the child', which they also apply to animals, and which has been proven to be counter productive and damaging.

No trainer worth their salt will inflict pain on an animal, whether that is thru a collar or by hitting, in order to train an animal.

No I'm not a dog trainer, but i've trained many cats, early on I used negative reinforncement, and since stopping that and only using positive reinforcement, I have much happier cats, who are far more sociable and interactive, and we have a far more rewarding relationship than i had with previous cats who where trained 'old school' - and most importantly, the cats who have been trained with only positive reinforcement are FAR more well behaved.

[Abraxxos]

E-collar. Got it. You don't understand when things are shortened. Let's make it simple. Not Elizabethan Collar. Not the cone collars. E collar meaning electric. Not e meaning electrocute. Please. READ what we are saying. Electric does not mean electrocute. It does not mean shock. It does not mean pain. It means there is a battery inside of it and it uses electricity to do whatever it is it does. Again. Electric piano. Does this piano electrocute you? No but it is electric. Electric does not translate to electrocution or shock. PLEASE read. I have said this previously and you have continued to stubbornly act like we're talking about shock collars. We are not. Obviously if you think training collars are always painful you have not used enough of the or a wide enough variety. Go buy some. They don't all inflict pain. A training collar can train through the use of sound. Sound doesn't inflict pain. It's just annoying depending on the frequency. You use your voice (sound) to praise a dog. You also use your voice (sound) to verbally reprimand a dog. If all training collars are painful apparently talking to your dog is painful too. Do you see the stupid here? We never said this trainer was inflicting pain. You took a class on human biology and apparently like dictionaries but did you ever take a reading class?

"I agree, no trainer should inflict pain on an animal to train it. I am not saying that in the least. Look up a Dogtra 300 or a Mini-einstein, both of these are e-collars (electric collars) that are used in training. They have 100 levels so that you can find the lowest level that your dog registers to create an annoying sensation. These create an electric pulse that tenses the muscle slightly where the collar is making contact. Before ever using these I've not only used them on myself but also on my own, personal dogs. These collars do not harm the dog. In fact, when used properly they teach the dog to think for themselves and want to obey the command given. These collars use the same technology as a tense unit in the Chiropractic office, this same technology used in the collars are used by professionals to help people.

I have a dog whom was abused from a trainer who used methods that I do not agree with. He then shyed away from people for six months and took a year to be a happy-go-lucky pup again with people, especially men. I used a Dogtra to train him and he is one of the most confident, happy pups and is very bonded with me.

Strictly positive reinforcement training dog work in many cases, I am not disagreeing with you there; however it does, like every method, have its flaws. For example: if a distraction outweighs the reward you have to offer, a dog will go to the distraction thus breaking command and this can put the dog into harms way. Without reprimand , the dog has already gotten his reward for breaking the command by reaching the distraction and thus rewarded himself for an unwanted behavior. Without any sort of reprimand for the unwanted behavior the dog will continue the behavior. I am not saying "negative reinforcement" in the terms of "pain", I am saying it asin punishment. A sort of punishment.

A child that colors on the walls, if allowed to do so will continue the behavior because it is self rewarding. If given a piece of candy every time the child colors on paper, this may eventually correct the problem however if they prefer the wall art to the candy then this method has become obsolete. If you correct a child, regardless on with a smack on the hand, crayons taken away, time out or what have you every time the child colors on the wall and reward for every time the child colors on paper you will see swift, understood results where there is a very defined line drawn on what is and is not allowed.

Its structure. Dogs need it just as kids do. I am not saying to beat a dog or a child nor to cause either any harm. I am saying that both need consequences for improper actions, regardless on training or parenting style.

I will admit, I do not know anything about training cats; that being said, you do not know nor understand the proper training methods used for these particular training collars. In such, you cannot say whether they do or do not cause pain. As a person who has put it on myself before ever using it on a dog, I ca tell you for a fact that the "correction" is not painful." -Dog Trainer

[formica]

for your information, and e-collar is something completely different to a training collar

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=e-collar#

just looked up Elizabethan collar, and you are still talking nonsense, its a medical device to protect an animal after surgery.

smacking a child is child abuse. end of.

[sweatshirt]

Erm... this is just my $0.02 but cats are completely different from dogs. I've always had both. You need to learn to understand cats, not try to train them. They don't come running back like dogs.

[formica]

Originally Posted by sweatshirt

Erm... this is just my $0.02 but cats are completely different from dogs. I've always had both. You need to learn to understand cats, not try to train them. They don't come running back like dogs.

my cats come when called, they even fetch toys on command but you are right, to get them trained in this way takes allot of care, and attention to the way cats communicate with each other

[Abraxxos]

"That is entirely your opinion and you are not acknowledging anything else given to you as examples. You are nit-picking to make your opinions clear instead of looking at what is offered to you as explanations and examples. I will accept this, and your opinion...however answer me this:

Using nothing but strictly positive reinforcement, how do you correct a dog bolting from you regularly? If a dog, seeing a person or another dog or squirrel or cat or what have you, does not wish to be beside you and will tug you down the road to get to said distraction and will not respond to the treat in your hand (whether it is a milk bone or a filet mignon), how do you handle this situation? Even after months of working in no distractions, and months working at a distance?

Or a dog without a food or toy drive? Or a dog that is terrified and shuts down and will refused treats?

And what do you do the day that you do not have treats on you?" -Dog trainer

Additionally I would like to point out that it has already been pointed out to you that we are NOT talking about Elizabethan collars. You are obviously not actually reading. You are completely 100% skipping over everything written and refusing to pay attention to what we are saying.

[sweatshirt]

I meant in the way like train them to leave the room when another cat comes in. My cats also come when called.

[formica]

Originally Posted by Abraxxos

"That is entirely your opinion and you are not acknowledging anything else given to you as examples. You are nit-picking to make your opinions clear instead of looking at what is offered to you as explanations and examples. I will accept this, and your opinion...however answer me this:

Using nothing but strictly positive reinforcement, how do you correct a dog bolting from you regularly? If a dog, seeing a person or another dog or squirrel or cat or what have you, does not wish to be beside you and will tug you down the road to get to said distraction and will not respond to the treat in your hand (whether it is a milk bone or a filet mignon), how do you handle this situation? Even after months of working in no distractions, and months working at a distance?

Or a dog without a food or toy drive? Or a dog that is terrified and shuts down and will refused treats?

And what do you do the day that you do not have treats on you?" -Dog trainer

Additionally I would like to point out that it has already been pointed out to you that we are NOT talking about Elizabethan collars. You are obviously not actually reading. You are completely 100% skipping over everything written and refusing to pay attention to what we are saying.

e-collar and Elizabethan collar are the same thing, did you not look at the google link I added? they are not electric collars, and if you want to show me a collar which does not involve sending a current thru the animals neck, as I asked, then please do.

yes of course I skipped over it, if you want to try and change facts around however you like and speak down to people, then dont expect them to bother reading the rest of your post.

[formica]

the whole point of training, is that you do not need the treats all the time, no professional dog trainer would ask such a stupid question.