Recent Komodo postings of Dr. Bryan Fry

[Rob_H]

i didn't realize there were so many biochemists and toxinologists on this board....

Yes, they`re "10 a penny" on these websites.....

I think using the public's money for research entitles them to discuss it though don't you think?

Either way, Fry et al has published in general journals (PNAS, Nature, Science), so of course they will welcome scrutiny by non-specialists.... and I would say that it's a huge achievement if you've explained your subject so well that non-specialists know enough to disagree with you.

Hi, I think you`ve clearly misunderstood what was stated in the articles; at no time have Bryan or his associates claimed the Komodo dragons drank the water the prey had been wallowing in and that`s where the bacteria in their mouths came from?
They found the most advanced venom delivery system of any reptile in V. komodensis.
Maybe you can read ALL the articles again and then offer your opinions? Alternatively, you could contact the scientists immediately and inform them you know better (just kidding)!

Ouch! I won't claim to have read all of Fry's work: I'd be seriously impressed if you have! However, this is exactly what Fry has said though; in talks at conferences, in press releases, and he's implied it in some papers.... including the one we're talking about. I really don't have time to dig the quotes out at the moment, but will if you remind me later/still want proof.

There are pros and cons to both the venom idea and the bacteria idea, but I don't think either one can be advocated as being more or less important in an ecological context until a study is actually DONE in an ecological context. This is the question where specific expertise in biochemistry is useless. I guess the main problem is that buffs and pigs are introduced, so we'll never really know the evolutionary context of the bacteria idea unless someone shows there are specific adaptations to allow their colonisation (such as a behavioural preferences for drinking putrid vs clean water etc). But again, whether predatory behaviour using pathogenic microbes is an evolved response or not doesn't detract that it may now be important for the animal's foraging ecology.

By the way, by no means do Komodos have 'the most advanced venom delivery system of any reptile'. I assume that was a typo... or that you've never seen a viper or elapid before .

[infernalis]

Originally Posted by Rob_H

By the way, by no means do Komodos have 'the most advanced venom delivery system of any reptile'. I assume that was a typo... or that you've never seen a viper or elapid before .

I would certainly hope that the following statement was the INTENDED point....

"the most advanced venom delivery system in Varanidae species"

Do I assume correctly?

Komodo Dragons - venomdoc.com

[Gatorhunter1231]

Not what was stated Wayne. It was stated most advanced in reptile. I already stated the most basic. Below that of the Gila, beaded, or rear fanged snakes.

[Zoo Nanny]

Originally Posted by infernalis

Komodo dragon bacteria a myth (Science Alert)

Hot topic.

Wayne thank you for posting this link. Very interesting and answered my questions/curiosity. Description of the surgical removal of the venom gland and the tooth structure was very informative. I like his style of writing. Most scholarly articles can be difficult to follow for a lay person. Even though there are sections that were difficult to follow I was still able to understand the conclusions of the study.

[murrindindi]

Originally Posted by Gatorhunter1231

Not what was stated Wayne. It was stated most advanced in reptile. I already stated the most basic. Below that of the Gila, beaded, or rear fanged snakes.

Hi, I think you need to contact Bryan Grieg Fry and ask his opinion on whether komodensis have the "most basic" venom delivery system "below that of Gilas and Beaded lizards and rear fanged snakes", I`m guessing he may have tested all of those, and you haven`t?
I can`t remember which article it was in, but I do believe "they" said the most advanced in any reptile yet studied (apologies if I`m mistaken)!

[infernalis]

Originally Posted by Gatorhunter1231

Not what was stated Wayne. It was stated most advanced in reptile. I already stated the most basic. Below that of the Gila, beaded, or rear fanged snakes.

hence the wording of my post... context is everything.

[formica]

the artical and publication that I read, by Dr Fry, said ''most complex'', not most advanced - either way, i'm not sure how a gland which secretes venom between the teeth, essentially in the same way that a saliva gland secretes saliva, is more advanced or complex, than a pair of hinged, hollow fangs or a cobras jet stream, tbh

[smy_749]

Originally Posted by formica

the artical and publication that I read, by Dr Fry, said ''most complex'', not most advanced - either way, i'm not sure how a gland which secretes venom between the teeth, essentially in the same way that a saliva gland secretes saliva, is more advanced or complex, than a pair of hinged, hollow fangs or a cobras jet stream, tbh

Maybe you just don't understand to the same level as Dr. Fry (world renowned scientist in his field)...its a possibility.

[murrindindi]

Originally Posted by formica

the artical and publication that I read, by Dr Fry, said ''most complex'', not most advanced - either way, i'm not sure how a gland which secretes venom between the teeth, essentially in the same way that a saliva gland secretes saliva, is more advanced or complex, than a pair of hinged, hollow fangs or a cobras jet stream, tbh

Hi, I think you may be right, they stated the most complex, then again, define "most complex" as opposed to "most advanced", I guess we can take them in different ways!
I cannot see how an animal (V. komodensis in this case) that can deliver venom with one very quick slashing bite can be described as "more basic" than the Gila and Beaded lizards, both of which must hang on to the prey for significantly longer in order the venom seeps in? I would say the dragon has the more efficient (advanced?) delivery system.
They aren`t suggesting the gland itself is more complex so much as the delivery of the venom (along with their tooth structure) that makes it so sophisticated/complex/advanced (at least that`s how I take it)?

[formica]

indeed, advanced does not mean complex, advanced indicates some improvement in the efficiency of the venom delivery

I'm not sure that the Komodos method is more effeciant, than injecting direct into the blood stream tbh, the komodo is pretty much relying on an unknown amount being smeared over the skin and inner tissues, the body of the animal will quickly react and cause swelling which will slow down the amount of venom that can enter the body, injection doesnt give the body this oppertuntiy, the venom will spread thru the body within seconds, depending on the heart rate of the animal - and the fact that animals do not die within minutes of being bitten by a Komodo, indiciates that their Venom is not effeciant, or even massivly useful


smy_ - stop with the snide little comments and join in the discussion, its getting old. i'm not claiming to be world renowned scientist, but I have intelligence which I like to use to discuss ideas, and no world renowed scientist is going to look down on me for that - in the way that you are doing

[infernalis]

I know for a fact Bryan has read this, and is likely to check in on it from time to time, is this really the way you would behave if you were attending one of his presentations?

It's perfectly fine to ask questions, it's perfectly fine to refute what you have read, but calling names in class is childish. (hint hint)

[smy_749]

Its not a snide remark. You are doubting his research, saying you don't see how it could be advanced or complex either way. And I'm just saying, you don't understand as much as Dr. Fry does so if he says its advanced or complex, than it probably is.

[MDT]

Originally Posted by formica

indeed, advanced does not mean complex, advanced indicates some improvement in the efficiency of the venom delivery

I'm not sure that the Komodos method is more effeciant, than injecting direct into the blood stream tbh, the komodo is pretty much relying on an unknown amount being smeared over the skin and inner tissues, the body of the animal will quickly react and cause swelling which will slow down the amount of venom that can enter the body, injection doesnt give the body this oppertuntiy, the venom will spread thru the body within seconds, depending on the heart rate of the animal - and the fact that animals do not die within minutes of being bitten by a Komodo, indiciates that their Venom is not effeciant, or even massivly useful

Tell me what kind of peptides, enzymes, kinins, etc are present in the Komodo's venom? How do you know how efficient their venom is? Are you basing your guesses on experience with what? Why does the animal *have* to die within minutes to be considered "massively useful"? The fact that Komodo's are the apex predator in their environment tells me that their venom is quite efficient.

Not trying to be a douche, but until those little tid bits are understood, it's strictly conjecture....

[formica]

Originally Posted by smy_749

Its not a snide remark. You are doubting his research, saying you don't see how it could be advanced or complex either way. And I'm just saying, you don't understand as much as Dr. Fry does so if he says its advanced or complex, than it probably is.

I dont doubt the research, I am questioning the conclusions, there is a difference

Originally Posted by MDT

Tell me what kind of peptides, enzymes, kinins, etc are present in the Komodo's venom? How do you know how efficient their venom is? Are you basing your guesses on experience with what? Why does the animal *have* to die within minutes to be considered "massively useful"? The fact that Komodo's are the apex predator in their environment tells me that their venom is quite efficient.

Not trying to be a douche, but until those little tid bits are understood, it's strictly conjecture....

If an animal takes days to die, as appears to be the case with Komodo prey, there is a significant risk that the animal will escape, or at least get far enough away for the lizard to miss out on a meal, or worse fight back and injure the Komodo, regardless of how deadly the venom may be over a longer period, these risks are not insignificant - this isnt the case with for eg a rattlesnake, when it strikes, its prey dies very quickly, this reduces the oppertunity for the prey to fight back or escape

that is what I mean by more efficient - you dont have to be a biochemist to ask these questions

[murrindindi]

Originally Posted by formica

indeed, advanced does not mean complex, advanced indicates some improvement in the efficiency of the venom delivery

I'm not sure that the Komodos method is more effeciant, than injecting direct into the blood stream tbh, the komodo is pretty much relying on an unknown amount being smeared over the skin and inner tissues, the body of the animal will quickly react and cause swelling which will slow down the amount of venom that can enter the body, injection doesnt give the body this oppertuntiy, the venom will spread thru the body within seconds, depending on the heart rate of the animal - and the fact that animals do not die within minutes of being bitten by a Komodo, indiciates that their Venom is not effeciant, or even massivly useful.

I think you`ve missed something; the fact the largest prey may not die within minutes (adult buffalo, horse, etc), doesn`t mean the venom isn`t efficient or important, it certainly IS, as BGF states, "it`s another weapon in their arsenal".
Just because they may need to wait a few days/even weeks for a large prey animal to become immobile/die is of little importance when we consider the amount of energy it will supply!
It could be expected that the venom would have a greater (faster) effect on smaller prey.
EDIT: The fact the prey may move some distance before dying is clearly not a problem for an animal that can detect a carcass from up to 11km away!