ready made sleeping hides for Savs

[formica]

Originally Posted by franks

Edit: Furthermore, it is only their burrows that permit them to cling on during the harsh seasons, an aspect of husbandry that ironically you are seeking to cut-out.

no definitly not! If I choose to aestivate my monitor, it will be after allot more research, and he will be closely monitored inside his burrow with correct temps and humidity at all times, it'll be the most pleasant version of the dry season that I can provide. if I choose that route; i havent decieded yet, no rush, dry season isnt until end of August. and before that I need to know what the ideal BMI of a sav should be when it reaches that point, before i even consider it - and i also need to have a fully stabilized burrow (albiet an artificial burrow) for him to spend the time in

[varanus_mad]

KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid

[formica]

not often people mistake me for being stupid.

[franks]

Originally Posted by franks

@formica, I have to add, I am so surprised at how pleasantly and respectfully you manage to dissagree with people lol. I think I said this to you before, but again, good for you. Frequenting this forum, I expect a brawl if somebody's post is challenged. It is fun discussing these topics like adults for once.

Hahahaha This is what I was referring to. Veranus_Mad is pretty knowledgeable member here... and that is his contribution to the discussion.

[varanus_mad]

Originally Posted by formica

not often people mistake me for being stupid.

who said i was calling you stupid? its a mantra not an insult just sometimes its possible to overthink things.

Simple works.

A ton of dirt a sealed viv and a temp and humidity gradient...

Its simple its effective and it works extremely well.

just remember its better to KISS when it comes to varanids...

[varanus_mad]

Originally Posted by franks

Hahahaha This is what I was referring to. Veranus_Mad is pretty knowledgeable member here... and that is his contribution to the discussion.

I could add more...

but it would more or less be repeating what wayne said...

Apart from... limits we have them in captivity the fewer we enforce on them the better...

i see this hide box as a limiting factor allowing the monitor the freedom to make as many choices as possible is one of the best things you can do for it...

Build a hide box in there like the one you described by all means... but dont limit it to just that though give it the full two foot of dirt is it a pain in the arse yes it can be when it comes to eggs or indeed if a burrow collapsed... having said that a burrow collapsed on a 16" argus i didnt realise till about a day later when i hadnt seen her about for a while i dug her up and for my trouble i got hissed at and bitten...

[nepoez]

Originally Posted by formica

I am becoming more attached to the idea of a sealed box of some kind, instead of a large soil burrowing area; currently designing my final savs final enclosure, sav's like dead tree stumps to live in when given the oppertunity in the wild, if the conditions are right inside, so the idea to create a hide, inside a sealed box is quite appealing for a few reasons. a reasonable length tunnel connecting the main outdoor space with the hide, so it feels secure, and protectable, by the Sav. lots of substrate and very careful control of humidity and tempretures, plus the ability for me to get inside the burrow without too much disruption to its enviroment, should the need arise, seems to me like a good idea.

My idea so far:

size - not decided, how big do they like it at full size? perhaps I should build in a way to gradually increase its size, if it prefers something snug fitting

So as a start, a large thick black plastic, possibly water tank of size TBC...

on the bottom 6inches of clay aggregate (balls that hold moisture), filled with water approx 0.5-1inch above the balls, and maintained at the same level via either a gravity pump, or manually. this water may also be heated via an aquarium tank heater to provide the required temps and humidty in the burrow, if required. then covered with a metal grill so he cant dig into aggregate and get to the water heater (its glass, def dont want him chomping on that!).

on top of that, foot of soil, with the bottom 0.5-1inch in the water below, to absorb moisture, emulating water table in wild, and bringing warmth from below into the burrow if the heater is needed, and then another 6 inches of sphagnum moss on top of that for even more humidity and for it to nose around in or move about and make the space more comfortable.

Humidity and Temperature sensors inside so things can be adjusted as needed.

The idea behind a prebuilt hide as apposed to the other options (like a huge soil filled burrow) is about access and cleaning, in the wild a monitors burrow will be kept clean by the crustaceans that live alongside it, aswell as the fact that in the wild although Humdity levels are high, air movement is also high, so things dont stagnate in the same way they can in a tank, producing molds and fungi which might not be good.

so I would like to for eg be able to change the moss every once in a while, and make sure theres no nasty molds growing due to the low air movement and high temp/humidity. Also means i dont have to dig it out if I'm concerned about his health for any reason.

So whats peoples thoughts, besides the removing of natural behaviour of burrowing, which has been covered many times before of course! If I choose this route, I will provide oppertunities for digging, for eg and area to dig up the occasional juice fat beetle grub or the odd snake egg nest (fertilized quail eggs not snake eggs)

will this solution present any other issues anyone can forsee? I certainly dont intend on opening his home up more than once every few months to inspect and clean, if that.

Cool idea. But personally I prefer letting nature take its course.

I got a big pile of substrate with superworms and earthworms and isopods and other bacteria in it. My guy takes a crap in the soil(he only poos in the same spot far away from his burrow) everyday. Within a day the crap is eaten by the bugs living there. My tank doesn't smell like poo, just fresh soil. If we're talking ease of maintenance I don't think it gets any easier than this! I put a entire watermelon peal, mango, and other fruites in the soil, and within 1 week, when I tried to dig it up again, it's completely gone. Basically the soil and the organisms in it takes care of everything.

I really love that! I don't understand why not everyone would wanna do this! It's like a self sustaining mini ecosystem.

This summer I plan to experiment with self sustaining water as well. So I plan to make a little lake in the new tank which has soil on the bottom too, with aquatic plants and snails etc... I have to do more research on that, but if the soil works on land I don't see why it can't be done to water as well. If anyone has any tips on that and has been successful with that please do tell.

[varanus_mad]

Originally Posted by formica

haha :P yes i think allot - but i would rather spend this time checking all my facts and peoples experiences, and get the build right first time round, rather than have to start again, or modify - The issue of having to dig up the burrow in an 'emergancy' or whatever is a major issue for me, as is the condition of the burrow underground, which the monitor doesnt have control over


PH is something I hadnt considered, a quick check seems to suggest much of Ghanas soil is on the acid side, this would support some of the plants I know that come from the region, will find out more.

Nitrogen content is another interesting point, esp in terms of molds and fungi that might grow in the nest - which again leads onto other organisms in the soil which may stabilise things in the wild, but destabilize in captivity

ive never seen mold in a boscs viv before now generally the captives keep the soil turned over enough that it never has time to grow or develop.

Dirt is fantastic you seem to be pre-occupied with cleanliness to... its really not a massive issue when it comes to varanids spot cleaning i.e. removing large amounts of obvious faeces the large amount of dirt acts as its own waste recycling plant the stuff living in there... Ive never seen or heard of an issue in this recard... biologically active substrates are again a step closer to nature something you are very keen on.

Burrow temps and Humidity seems to have been covered in most threads, ie 90%+ humidity, min of 22C - this part at least, is easy to deal with, with the setup above, aswell as the traditional free-range burrow

I agree on the point of digging providing exercise, I do plan on giving him plenty to do, including digging up 'egg nests' and oversized beetle grub treats in shallower soil areas either way, and enough space to chase insects around at a good speed. - hmm need to find out more about this, coz in all fairness, even an 8x4x4 soil area isnt a huge amount of earth to shift over the life time of a monitor? in the wild, how many burrows do they make, or do they just make one and hope another bigger monitor doesnt steal it? or maybe they make a new one every year, or every few...? or never

On an as needed basis they move if they have to or if conditions around them dictate they must there very dynamic in all of there behaviours.
Natural nesting preferences seem to vary a bit, from reports I've read around the web, they are opportunistic in the wild, taking over burrows of other animals, aswell as dead trees, under rocks near streams/rivers and other places they can attain their required sleeping enviroment, aswell as the burrows they dig for themselves - discovered that savanna monitor meat is a staple part of diet around west africa because they can easily be caught during rainy season

digging them up for tourists pisses me right off - espcially as some of the vids i've seen on youtube are blatantly doing it during dry season, when it needs to conserve energy and moisture, not be waved about in the sun and then have to find a new burrow, no matter how good diggers they are, they are going to loose allot of water and energy digging thru rock hard dry season soil!

Could the lack of tourist/wild images, be down to the fact that tourists dont generally go on holiday in the wet seasons, when the monitors are active? not many scientists are going to want to spend their time in the mosquito infested wet season either, unless sav's are off some particular interest to science, which i dont think they are; shame, esp with the apparent surge in interest by hobbyist keepers, and the amazingly bad care hatchlings seem to get from allot of people!

Most monitors are of pretty piss poor importance to science as whole sad but true you may have noticed by now but those who do study monitors tend to be obsessed by them boardering on fanatism...

Hope this is more helpfull than my previous posts.

[varanus_mad]

Originally Posted by formica

that is their adaption - dormancy, and then glutteny during rainy season, thats what evolutionary adaption is; and there are certain to be physiological changes going on aswell

You might be right, but I would expect to find Sav's in a far wider range than they seem to be found, if they didnt 'like' their wet/dry seasonal changes, I know they are said to be found as far south as the northern congo, and i think it would be interesting to know what the diffrences are between those from Ghana and those from Congo; life-span, size, general health, position in food chain, population density etc would all be a good indicator of how monitors deal with a diffrent enviroment - then again, we might just discover that the Savs from congo have adapted and evolved quite specific ways to deal with life that would leave it to the vultures any where else, and vice-versa

If you look at how savs store fat and where without a doubt similar to AFT geckos and leopard geckos big fat store in the tail if you look at obese savs when they go on a diet the last place they lose fat from is the tail.

Behavourial patterns in monitors according to where they live vary a lot in Auss for example you can have tree dwelling kimberly rock monitors quite close to rock dwellers...

[varanus_mad]

Originally Posted by nepoez

Cool idea. But personally I prefer letting nature take its course.

I got a big pile of substrate with superworms and earthworms and isopods and other bacteria in it. My guy takes a crap in the soil(he only poos in the same spot far away from his burrow) everyday. Within a day the crap is eaten by the bugs living there. My tank doesn't smell like poo, just fresh soil. If we're talking ease of maintenance I don't think it gets any easier than this! I put a entire watermelon peal, mango, and other fruites in the soil, and within 1 week, when I tried to dig it up again, it's completely gone. Basically the soil and the organisms in it takes care of everything.

I really love that! I don't understand why not everyone would wanna do this! It's like a self sustaining mini ecosystem.

This summer I plan to experiment with self sustaining water as well. So I plan to make a little lake in the new tank which has soil on the bottom too, with aquatic plants and snails etc... I have to do more research on that, but if the soil works on land I don't see why it can't be done to water as well. If anyone has any tips on that and has been successful with that please do tell.

Yeah get a massive filter on it... bacteria that does the job of breaking down the bad stuff needs a large surface area to work on even then some things still build up to toxic levels water that doesnt move and change.

Plants can help ive got a small natural pond outside in the garden thats around a quarter soil with reeds and grass's growing in it theres also a shed load of plants in there to but i wouldnt want to put fish in there...

[nepoez]

Originally Posted by varanus_mad

Yeah get a massive filter on it... bacteria that does the job of breaking down the bad stuff needs a large surface area to work on even then some things still build up to toxic levels water that doesnt move and change.

Plants can help ive got a small natural pond outside in the garden thats around a quarter soil with reeds and grass's growing in it theres also a shed load of plants in there to but i wouldnt want to put fish in there...

I guess what you are saying is I won't be able to do what I am doing with soil to water unless I have a filter? If that's true, then I guess I'm better off just changing fresh water each day.. filters are not hassle free and still need maintenance.

[varanus_mad]

Originally Posted by nepoez

I guess what you are saying is I won't be able to do what I am doing with soil to water unless I have a filter? If that's true, then I guess I'm better off just changing fresh water each day.. filters are not hassle free and still need maintenance.

No i can see where your going with but the anaerboic conditions in the soil which take out the bad stuff also produce gas's of there own which can build up in the soil and then release all of a sudden in a sealed environment like a sav viv they would be bad news.

[murrindindi]

Originally Posted by varanus_mad

KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid

Hi, well said, overthinking often leads to problems, in this case I believe it will (for the animal, not the keeper)...

[Pirarucu]

I think that if you are planning to provide a period of inactivity, you will need to do a lot more preparation. For one thing, if you are wanting to simulate the harsh dry season, then I think you most certainly need to provide the tools your monitor will need in order to go through the simulated dry season. Namely, a deep layer of soil throughout the enclosure. If I were planning on creating a dry season, I would want to make it deeper than they usually need, not shallower...
I also see a huge issue that I don't see anyone talking about. Do you know that your monitor is a definite male? If not, it may be a good idea to prepare for the outcome of a female monitor, which will be laying eggs. Regardless of whether or not she is kept with a male, females need deep dirt to lay eggs in, and if they do not approve of what you provide them with then they will hold in the eggs. Therefore, you want to provide a lot of options, the best way is to provide deep dirt throughout the cage.

I think you are trying to take this farther than it needs to or ought to go. You are talking about a period of fasting, why not simply provide deep dirt and a humid environment year round, and cut back on feeding for two or three months each year?

[murrindindi]

Originally Posted by nepoez

Cool idea. But personally I prefer letting nature take its course.

I got a big pile of substrate with superworms and earthworms and isopods and other bacteria in it. My guy takes a crap in the soil(he only poos in the same spot far away from his burrow) everyday. Within a day the crap is eaten by the bugs living there. My tank doesn't smell like poo, just fresh soil. If we're talking ease of maintenance I don't think it gets any easier than this! I put a entire watermelon peal, mango, and other fruites in the soil, and within 1 week, when I tried to dig it up again, it's completely gone. Basically the soil and the organisms in it takes care of everything.

I really love that! I don't understand why not everyone would wanna do this! It's like a self sustaining mini ecosystem.

This summer I plan to experiment with self sustaining water as well. So I plan to make a little lake in the new tank which has soil on the bottom too, with aquatic plants and snails etc... I have to do more research on that, but if the soil works on land I don't see why it can't be done to water as well. If anyone has any tips on that and has been successful with that please do tell.

Hi, I`ve used exterior filters in my monitor`s pools for many years, I think by having soil in the water it will probably clog the filter quite quickly. Much easier to have nothing but water in the pond (heated to the low to mid 80`sF).