Regurgitating Rainbow Boa!!!

[Will0W783]

I think that in the case of regurges, there is always (maybe 99.99999%) an underlying husbandry issue. That may come in the form of the snake simply being offered a meal that was too large for it to digest in a timely fashion, or it may be that the temperatures are not optimal for that species.
Keep in mind that snakes must digest an entire whole prey item...therefore if the ambient temps are too hot, the food will spoil in their gut before they can digest it and they will regurge to prevent sepsis. If the temperatures are too low, the snake will not be able to get its enzymes to work in time to digest the prey before natural decomposition takes over and it will need to regurge to prevent itself from becoming ill. Snakes in the wild occasionally bite off more than they can chew, and will regurge. After, the snake can rest as long as it wants to before eating again.

I have mixed feelings on the probiotics issue. I've used liquified probiotics dissolved in Pedialyte injected into the prey of multiple regurgers I've dealt with in the past. However, I found that if I used probiotics too soon, the snake would simply regurge again. The only consistent thing that I have seen work is giving the animal a rest before its next feeding. Think about how hard muscles must work and how far the prey must come up for a snake to regurge...it can cause damage and stress to the esophagus.

I would be very interested to see studies showing stomach acid content and composition in healthy snakes and in chronic regurgers...we just don't know what's going on inside there really.

I do not think probiotics can hurt, however I would not use yogurt. Snakes do not normally consume dairy products and I would hesitate to introduce a foreign alien substance into an already stressed animal's system. I would think the way to go, if you wish to try probiotics, is to buy pills from a store and dissolve it in unflavored Pedialyte, then inject this solution into the snake's prey item.

However, I think the most important thing to do is give the snake time to rest. For a young or emaciated/thin python/boa, I'd give a week. For an adult of normal body weight, give two weeks. For viperids, give 3-4 weeks of rest before the next feeding.

Just my $0.02 based on my experiences and discussions with other keepers.

[Aaron_S]

lol the big name drop thing. I question "big" ball python breeders so no one is above any questioning.

I don't put people on a pedestal as you seem to do just because they are "big".

For the record, all my experience of baby boas was when I worked in pet stores. We'd buy whole litters. The regurge issues I've seen were from customers who suck.

I would never recommend putting things into prey items. That's my decision.

You had two boas die. One never ate and another "never recovered" from a regurge. Maybe it just wasn't meant to make it? Who wants those genes in the gene pool anyway?

[Jendee]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

lol the big name drop thing. I question "big" ball python breeders so no one is above any questioning.

I don't put people on a pedestal as you seem to do just because they are "big".

For the record, all my experience of baby boas was when I worked in pet stores. We'd buy whole litters. The regurge issues I've seen were from customers who suck.

I would never recommend putting things into prey items. That's my decision.

You had two boas die. One never ate and another "never recovered" from a regurge. Maybe it just wasn't meant to make it? Who wants those genes in the gene pool anyway?

Im beginning to doubt you a lot lol
Im not putting anybody on a pedestal but experience comes from doing the more you do the more you learn so getting advice from people who have bred 100s of boas for 10-20 yrs is not a bad idea at a lol
whole selling litters to a pet store..neonates being sent to pet store in "litter" form is going to cause all types of problems and im sure you just blamed it on ****** keepers.
it has nothing to do with genes, are you saying I don't outcross my animals and they are genetically week. everybody loses babies from litters they don't always all make it. the first 12 meals are very crucial. But you clearly don't understand. Ever raise babies from birth..taking them out the goo dealing with yok sacs, partial cords, yok belly, first ever meals, first sheds ect ect then speak on the topic

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by Jendee

Im beginning to doubt you a lot lol
Im not putting anybody on a pedestal but experience comes from doing the more you do the more you learn so getting advice from people who have bred 100s of boas for 10-20 yrs is not a bad idea at a lol
whole selling litters to a pet store..neonates being sent to pet store in "litter" form is going to cause all types of problems and im sure you just blamed it on ****** keepers.
it has nothing to do with genes, are you saying I don't outcross my animals and they are genetically week. everybody loses babies from litters they don't always all make it. the first 12 meals are very crucial. But you clearly don't understand. Ever raise babies from birth..taking them out the goo dealing with yok sacs, partial cords, yok belly, first ever meals, first sheds ect ect then speak on the topic

I will in a few years when my boas do breed.

Anyway, as I said, some animals just aren't meant to make it. I don't get what you're arguing with the whole fact I said that. I never said anything about your breeding. I'm just saying some animals shouldn't be allowed to live and go back into the gene pool (not saying YOU but if you sell or whatever)

So the fact I kept literally hundreds of boas a year alive for months on end until they sold doesn't qualify me to say it wasn't an issue I created? Hmm? Odd how after 3 months I sell a boa and all of a sudden it's having problems eating? yeah...my fault. Not theirs....

Anyway, you're straying from the topic at hand and coming at me personally. I just stated my experience so it's not like I am speaking from nothing. That is all I meant by it.

As I said, MY decision to not put random things into snakes or to recommend it.

[Jendee]

100s of boas huh for yrs. How come your not in the boa community at all... I dont invision the boa biz taking your narcissistic self proclaimed einstein (with no credibility besides your 12k post here) very well...so good luck with becoming a hobbiest/breeder dear its a hard group to get into. And breeding boas isnt easy either thatll put you to the test for sure

[NBLADE]

Originally Posted by Jendee

if you haven't experienced a regurge then how would you know how to treat it...baby boas are hard to get going your average litter is what 20 babies at least 2-3 of those 20 babies wont eat or will puke up what you give them. Last season I lost 2 babies one wouldn't eat at all the other gurged once and never recovered from it. Sold the rest all are nice healthy happy babies. I wish I knew about this method then .I wont name drop with the lists of breeders but if I could lol I doubt youd be questioning so much but they are all scrictly bcc/bci breeders so maybe you wouldn't know them and maybe this wouldn't work on other species as that has not been "tested"
but wouldn't hundereds of baby boas using this method for yrs be enough testing? as I said nutrabac used to be the "thing" vets would give/subscribe sometimes most will just give the boa fluids and send you home. and like you say check your temps lol but if your whole snake room or that baby rack that boa is in has perfect temps why would that one baby have a problem. because other factors can play in a roll in a eating problem . once things start going down hill you have to do something to help recovery and all Im saying is this is the #1 thing being used high protein greek yogurt. The big boys swear by it and that enough for me.

I dunno what breeders you've been dealing with, baby boas are generally easy to get going when kept in the right conditions, and out of literally hundreds of bci that have been bred here or gone through me, i've not had a single baby regurge anything i've given them, you can get the odd runt that is slow to get started, but it shouldn't be common in every litter, and with a little persuasion will start feeding on their own.

Most regurges people come to me with are due to temperatures being wrong, or they have stressed the snake out somehow, or in bcc cases have fed it like a bci and it can't handle it.

I have heard of the yogurt trick, generally by people who use it for skinny leopard geckos rather than a regurge thing, i've never had to treat a snake for a regurge, i've had a few over the years, generally with older animals, or wc animals that have stressed out, but most i come across are people bringing them to me due to incorrect care, and all i do is get them rehydrated, get the right conditions and then get them feeding again, if the snake is healthy and kept correctly it wont regurge in the first place, but if a snake has a serious health issue that is causing several regurges then they will likely need a lot more than a bit of foreign bacteria in the system to bring them back round.

[Chu'Wuti]

Yogurt works for humans, but using a foreign protein with whey and casein components in an animal whose digestive system never evolved to digest and metabolize those components does not make sense to me. I'd want to see the scientific evidence supporting the yogurt theory in snakes.

Everything I've ever read before suggests that when a snake regurgitates, it needs to be left alone for a week before feeding is attempted again. If it regurgitates a second time, I would try a smaller prey item to see if that helps. I might even try the smaller prey item the second time in hopes of avoiding a second regurge.

That being said, none of my animals has ever regurgitated, but I'm picky about my husbandry, some people would say. Just wondering if maybe people like Aaron_S, who has a LOT of experience, don't have animals that regurgitate because their husbandry and feeding conditions are maintained appropriately for the animal.

It's a thought worth considering.

[Jendee]

And how do you know aaron has alot of experince hes confident and speaks good game but that means nothing. Reputation/proof means something same with the last poster nblade im curios as to why neither of you have your full names here. You could be freaking anybody

[NBLADE]

Originally Posted by Chu'Wuti

Yogurt works for humans, but using a foreign protein with whey and casein components in an animal whose digestive system never evolved to digest and metabolize those components does not make sense to me. I'd want to see the scientific evidence supporting the yogurt theory in snakes.

Everything I've ever read before suggests that when a snake regurgitates, it needs to be left alone for a week before feeding is attempted again. If it regurgitates a second time, I would try a smaller prey item to see if that helps. I might even try the smaller prey item the second time in hopes of avoiding a second regurge.

That being said, none of my animals has ever regurgitated, but I'm picky about my husbandry, some people would say. Just wondering if maybe people like Aaron_S, who has a LOT of experience, don't have animals that regurgitate because their husbandry and feeding conditions are maintained appropriately for the animal.

It's a thought worth considering.

The leaving alone for a week is old out dated information, back when they thought snakes digestive systems were similar to mammals, but snakes don;t have a continuous supply of stomach acid like mammals do, they make it when they need it, so the reason people used to say to wait for a few weeks after a regurge was to let them build the stomach acids back up, but scientists done tests on this and it showed the snakes stomach is generally fine after a regurge, sometimes there are exceptions when a prey item can cause damage as the snake is regurging it, but in the majority of cases once the prey has been regurged, the snake is back to normal by the next day after they have had a drink and a rest, as regurging can expell quite a bit of energy and cause them stress.
I generally will just feed as normal the next time they were due, i do often feed something slightly smaller than usual, as if the snake regurged for underlying issues, it would likely regurge again, so a smaller food item would be easier for the snake to bring back up, and if it did so i'd know to then seek a vet to have a look at the stomach, but i've not had to do this ever yet, but generally it will be stress or temperature related, so will be kept down fine, and then next feeding they will go back to normal sized food and carry on from there.

[NBLADE]

Originally Posted by Jendee

And how do you know aaron has alot of experince hes confident and speaks good game but that means nothing. Reputation/proof means something same with the last poster nblade im curios as to why neither of you have your full names here. You could be freaking anybody

Why would i have my full name or be known by any body in the states when most my babies would go to wholesale companies, or shops in the UK, i used to send animals over to Europe aswell but never needed to try and ship to the states. You could name a lot of the big guys you said you spoke to and i'd have no idea who you was talking about. I also know people that have done quite a few world firsts and have bred more animals than a lot of the big breeders, but keep themselves of the internet, and deal solely with wholesale companies and the select few.
These people have great reputations to the people that need to know them.

[Chu'Wuti]

Well, I've known Aaron_S MUCH longer than I've known you, and he's always given me good, credible information, not merely opinions or nonscientific "advice" with no basis in fact. I'm a strong believer in evidence-based (read scientific) information.

And I don't have my full name here to prevent stalking; had that happen when I first joined, and I had to ditch my first user-name and get a new one. But you probably don't really want to know that, do you? Because you don't have YOUR full name here either.

Oh, well, doesn't matter anyway, as full names really don't have anything to do with credibility here.

I sure am seeing a LOT of flaming on this forum lately; it makes me sad. I think it's much more enjoyable and people are more likely to learn more when everyone treats each other with respect. We can agree to disagree with each other's opinions without calling them names or making other ad hominem attacks, can't we? The person who started this thread wants real answers, not a bunch of vitriol to have to wade through hoping to find something of substance to help her problem.

[Jendee]

Here hiding away in this forum he knows everything and is credible here....actually not really because alot of people have left for that reason.
I did list my name im very easy to find as no one else has that name
And that is why the argument started i have tried evidence proven method to work and im being told by mr "experience" and his loyal band wagon followers that im wrong

[Chu'Wuti]

Yes, I agree the name "Jendee" is on the member lists. So is Chu'Wuti.

As I noted, by "evidence-based" I mean scientific, which requires, for example, that something like the use of probiotics or yogurt be tested in multiple snakes with regurgitation issues against multiple controls with regurgitation issues. I'm willing to be that has never been done. Thus, the yogurt and/or probiotics treatments do not qualify as "evidence proven methods." If I'm mistaken about the lack of scientific research on these methods, please do correct me, send me a link, send me a published scientific study--I'd be very glad to read them and learn new tricks for dealing with problems that might occur.

Something can appear to work because the person using that treatment gives the snake a week or so to get better during the treatment. Giving the snake a week or two to rest and get better without the treatment might have worked just as well, but when someone wants to believe that their treatment works, then they will, no matter what.

I'm happy to be on Aaron_S's bandwagon, if that's what you'd like to believe.

[NBLADE]

Originally Posted by Jendee

Here hiding away in this forum he knows everything and is credible here....actually not really because alot of people have left for that reason.
I did list my name im very easy to find as no one else has that name
And that is why the argument started i have tried evidence proven method to work and im being told by mr "experience" and his loyal band wagon followers that im wrong

But i haven't seen any true hard evidence that introducing foreign bacteria into a snakes system will help with a regurge, other than you saying you have spoke to people that say it works, i'd like to see some scientific based facts on it before i'd give it a try, or advise others to do it, as i'd imagine too much or the wrong kind of bacteria introduced to the system could cause some health issues in its own right.
I don't even know who he is so i am no loyal band wagon follower. I'm just shocked that these breeders you speak to seem to be having a few babies in every single litter that are regurging or refusing to feed, bci are generally dustbins, and happilly smash down the food from the get go in my experience, and the odd runt in maybe 1 in 10 litters happens, but they are normally fine once they get feeding.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by Jendee

100s of boas huh for yrs. How come your not in the boa community at all... I dont invision the boa biz taking your narcissistic self proclaimed einstein (with no credibility besides your 12k post here) very well...so good luck with becoming a hobbiest/breeder dear its a hard group to get into. And breeding boas isnt easy either thatll put you to the test for sure

lol so now you question me openly? You're a joke at this point. You can ask for my credentials whenever you like. I have nothing to hide.

We're way off topic here.

Anyway, I said I used to keep these litters some years ago. I didn't breed them. My boss had purchased them and I took care of them. I don't get where you think I'm trying to break into some big huge business with boas and trying to make it out be some elite group that's difficult to break into?

And how do you know aaron has alot of experince hes confident and speaks good game but that means nothing. Reputation/proof means something same with the last poster nblade im curios as to why neither of you have your full names here. You could be freaking anybody

I'm not just confident. I speak from experience. I've been lucky that I've had the opportunities to gain experience with a vast amount of species on different levels. If you notice there's certain discussions I refrain from entering because I just have dated information and believe I'm better off suited to reading than posting a whole lot.

My name in the States means nothing. Mykee is a huge breeder up here but you don't see him in the States do you? Do you know of Corey Woods? How about Don Patterson? Henry Piorun? Shane at LegendBoas? Mark Mandic?

Lots of breeders have local or just National markets. I don't need to breed to satisfy the world. I cut my niche and that's that.

Here hiding away in this forum he knows everything and is credible here....actually not really because alot of people have left for that reason.
I did list my name im very easy to find as no one else has that name
And that is why the argument started i have tried evidence proven method to work and im being told by mr "experience" and his loyal band wagon followers that im wrong

lol what? People left because I gave bad information? Sure okay. LOL. You'd be surprised by the PM's I get from older members who come back purely to ask me a question or wish for my personal e-mail to get back to me sooner. Oh and the open thanks in random threads that some people learned a lot from myself and others.

No body is on my bandwagon. NBlade and I do not know each other. Sandy isn't either. I believe we're all just asking for more actual proof instead of "this is what I did. IT HAD TO BE THE REASON THEY LIVED!" We're simply asking for further explanation based on our knowledge of a snake's physiology. We're asking more learning questions and you're just throwing up a wall of "THESE ARE OLD TIMERS THEY KNOW ALL!!!!". I simply asked what kind of proof do they have? This isn't as simple to see as more humidity cures bad sheds. That's easily visible, whereas this is not.