NYS seeks to criminalize reptile ownership

[Kettennatter]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

Wait...weuldn't have to fight to keep our animals? The world should just allows us whatever we want? Dangerous or not?

I stand by what I said. If this comes up anywhere else then show up in person if this really bothers you and that you enjoy where you live. Make a stand. It's not difficult to do. I'd do it for you but the problem is they don't care about me since I live in Canada.

Oddly enough I find myself in agreement with Aaron. At least I can say I fought the Dangerous Animal Act in Ohio.

[Zoo Nanny]

Written letters/emails by individuals do little unless done by many. I've been involved in a few different campaigns over the past 10 years where we have generated thousands of letters/emails to inundate the specific officials involved. If you go to causes.com and put a plea out to all that belong it will spread like wild fire. Each person who signs up to sign petitions through causes is asked to then send the plea to an additional 10-50 individuals. It can be done without involving Causes as well. All that would be needed is a plea to web sites that you belong to. Give the names of specific people to write to. Address and/or email addresses of the individuals posted even a copy of an example letter/email will help to persuade folks to help out. I really hope it doesn't pass Wayne.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by Zoo Nanny

Written letters/emails by individuals do little unless done by many. I've been involved in a few different campaigns over the past 10 years where we have generated thousands of letters/emails to inundate the specific officials involved. If you go to causes.com and put a plea out to all that belong it will spread like wild fire. Each person who signs up to sign petitions through causes is asked to then send the plea to an additional 10-50 individuals. It can be done without involving Causes as well. All that would be needed is a plea to web sites that you belong to. Give the names of specific people to write to. Address and/or email addresses of the individuals posted even a copy of an example letter/email will help to persuade folks to help out. I really hope it doesn't pass Wayne.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahhha

I like the passive political stance. It's good for a laugh.

What councilperson cares about some nobody on the internet? I can literally sign it a million times myself. The people who make these laws and such just toss all written things in the garbage. It can easily be forged. They don't help, no matter how many.

Go there. Stand up. Do your part.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by Kettennatter

Oddly enough I find myself in agreement with Aaron. At least I can say I fought the Dangerous Animal Act in Ohio.

Good for you. I hope some good came from it.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by Gungirl

Aaron I believe in freedom.. something that is hard to come by now.

Plenty of it.

Let's not get off track here of the stated law in the first post. I'd prefer not to discuss freedoms as a whole but freedoms with our hobby/passion/business (reptiles).

Do you believe that the world could just operate with everyone having the freedom for whatever? How safe would you be? I want a grizzly bear. I should have the freedom to do so! Doesn't matter about anything else! MY freedom is above ALL else. Sure, it may kill,maim,destroy properties, kids or whatever but aslong as my freedom is intact. I also don't believe in caging one of these, free range is a must! My neighbours have NO SAY in this matter.

It's asinine to ever believe that freedom with everything is okay. Once upon a time there were no laws such as these. Of course incidents happened and we needed to build a structured way to deal with them.

[Kettennatter]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

Good for you. I hope some good came from it.

Yes, in contrast to other animals, reptiles got the far better deal after quite a bit of a lobbying push. Licensing requirements for snakes over 12ft and venemous snakes are still rather restrictive. (Crocodilians got the bad end of the deal.) There is still a lawsuit pending, and while I'm not getting my hopes up, I am supporting the organization who brought forward the lawsuit.

[Zoo Nanny]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahhha

I like the passive political stance. It's good for a laugh.

What councilperson cares about some nobody on the internet? I can literally sign it a million times myself. The people who make these laws and such just toss all written things in the garbage. It can easily be forged. They don't help, no matter how many.

Go there. Stand up. Do your part.

Yes those that live in NY should go there and stand up and those outside can help by sending letters and emails.
It does work regardless of how comical you find it. How many people do you suppose contacted their reps during the attempted federal ban on all exotic animals? Politicians may not listen or read but they do take in to consideration numbers of people who can vote them back in or out.

[jarich]

Its an interesting argument, and one I am not sure on where I stand exactly.

I believe that reptiles should be harder to get than they are now. Its become too easy to get anything and everything in the US, and the effects of this ease on the wellbeing of both captive and wild populations is evident. I say in the US, because the US makes up 80% of the entire world's trade in reptiles. (Yes thats right, all the rest of the countries in the world only account for 20% of all reptiles traded globally. Its pretty easy to say we are the problem) And the reality is that the VAST majority of those animals will die prematurely due to nothing more complex than improper care. (If 85-95% of dogs and cats were dying due to poor nutrition and husbandry there would be an absolute uproar) These are wild animals, with very few species that are either easy to care for or interact well with humans. Yet they are often bought for teenagers and kids and almost universally slowly tortured to death. The prevalent theory on reptiles is much like fish; no big deal if they die, and usually you just toss it in the trash and get another.

Tied to this large trade in reptiles is the driving force of capital. Every new species found on some remote island is almost instantly put into the US pet trade because there is so much money to be made from it. Large scale breeders now have the capital to buy up rare species at astronomical prices, and that is difficult for locals in third world countries to pass up. The presence of the market here has driven the exploitation of the natural world of reptiles in a way that otherwise would not have happened. Its ironic that new species of reptiles are now discovered by the reptile trade PRIOR to scientific discovery, and therefore prior to knowing how big the wild population, how collection will effect them, or what to classify them as in CITES.

So when I see these laws spring up now, there is a large part of me that thinks it is a good thing, and that we, as a collective, deserve this. There was no self regulation, there was no thought of what would happen in the future as a collective. It was merely that there was money to be made and the freedom to do whatever we wanted. I dont condone large scale reptile breeders or importers for the same reason I dont condone puppy mills; I dont believe they have contributed to the benefit of the animals, but rather singularly to the pocketbook of the keepers, and usually the detriment of the animals.

So now we have the situation in the US where you can get a ridiculously venomous reptile, or one big enough to kill an idiot, at practically any hobby exhibition. Reprehensible places like Backwater Reptiles will sell rare and dangerous reptiles to any boob who will pay the prices. Do I think that anyone should be able to purchase a cobra or a retic or croc monitor or some practically unheard of species from deepest New Guinea? Absolutely not. It is not freedom to be able to do so, it is a lack of collective sense and awareness. Now come the laws that are the reaping of what we have sown.

Having said that, I have to realize the hypocrisy of some of those statements. I own reptiles, and they largely came from the wild. However, even if the laws were as strict as those in Australia, I would still own reptiles. Obviously it would be different species, but I would probably get no less enjoyment from them. The main difference though with stricter laws is that there would not be such a prevalent or large scale problem at least. If licensing was required for reptiles, instead of them just being throw away pets to give to your kids so they feel cool for two months, I think that it would be more of a commitment from keepers, like it was 30 years ago. Is this a cure for all the ills of the reptile trade? No, of course not, but perhaps through a scaled license (one for zoos/research facilities, one for hobbyists, one for breeders) we could not only create a more beneficial situation for the reptiles but also create a more coherent community surrounding them.

There is also the argument that the large scale of the pet trade has driven research and development of better husbandry tools. The lights, heaters, enclosures, etc available today are undoubtedly better than anything we had 20 or 30 years ago. However, when taken over the numbers that the increased trade has killed, you would be hard pressed to say that any of these developments have benefited reptiles as a whole.

Something should have happened a long time ago. We didnt do anything about it as an industry, other than try to make money off it, so now come the laws. Will they likely go too far? Yes, and we have no one else to blame really. Perhaps the best thing this teaches us as a collective is that we are all responsible as reptile keepers, even to those reptiles that are not ours. So be it.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by Zoo Nanny

Yes those that live in NY should go there and stand up and those outside can help by sending letters and emails.
It does work regardless of how comical you find it. How many people do you suppose contacted their reps during the attempted federal ban on all exotic animals? Politicians may not listen or read but they do take in to consideration numbers of people who can vote them back in or out.

A politician in New York doesn't care for a voter in Texas or another Country. We don't vote in their elections. So I don't think they consider them at all.

All those letters and e-mails can simply be forged. Why should they believe those are actual voters anyway?

[Aaron_S]

I agree with your overall statement because it's true. We were given our freedom, as it's been called, and we screwed it up. We now have to take our lumps.

Here are the parts I disagree with.

I dont condone large scale reptile breeders or importers for the same reason I dont condone puppy mills; I dont believe they have contributed to the benefit of the animals, but rather singularly to the pocketbook of the keepers, and usually the detriment of the animals.

Partially false. It's also highly hypocritical because without those breeders you wouldn't ever have what you have for a reasonable price. Also, I've said it before and I'll say it again. I would consider the reptile trade farmers and not mills. Breeders take care of their animals, they aren't sitting in waste or malnourished. They simply breed them on a regular basis and don't interact with them on a pet level. It's basic care and that's it. It has done wonders for a lot of species.

Obviously it would be different species, but I would probably get no less enjoyment from them.

I wish venomous and giant keepers would share in this thought.

The lights, heaters, enclosures, etc available today are undoubtedly better than anything we had 20 or 30 years ago. However, when taken over the numbers that the increased trade has killed, you would be hard pressed to say that any of these developments have benefited reptiles as a whole.

Really? I'm sure the monitor keepers would beg to differ how much these developments have helped them understand them from a captive standpoint. Plenty of species of reptiles are in conservation programs because we developed those items so we can stop them from being wiped out in the wild.

[Zoo Nanny]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

A politician in New York doesn't care for a voter in Texas or another Country. We don't vote in their elections. So I don't think they consider them at all.

All those letters and e-mails can simply be forged. Why should they believe those are actual voters anyway?

You would be surprised how many do care, because a good number have further aspirations in the federal gov and may need those voters from outside of their home state down the road. If the media is pulled in it becomes an even bigger deal to those politicians when people around the country are bombarding them with opinions.
It was a suggestion in hopes of aiding Wayne and others in NY not a post to start an argument.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by Zoo Nanny

You would be surprised how many do care, because a good number have further aspirations in the federal gov and may need those voters from outside of their home state down the road. If the media is pulled in it becomes an even bigger deal to those politicians when people around the country are bombarding them with opinions.
It was a suggestion in hopes of aiding Wayne and others in NY not a post to start an argument.

Well, I'm taking my view from a councilman. What actual PROOF do you have other than your assumption that it works?

I have yet to see the media EVER say there's an online petition and it worked. It never has.

It's fine to make suggestions but honestly make realistic ones that would work instead of wasting someone's time.

[Zoo Nanny]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

Well, I'm taking my view from a councilman. What actual PROOF do you have other than your assumption that it works?

I have yet to see the media EVER say there's an online petition and it worked. It never has.

It's fine to make suggestions but honestly make realistic ones that would work instead of wasting someone's time.

Victory: Lackland Sexual Assaults Petition Finds Success - Causes Blog
House committee hearing to address sexual assault in military | Reuters

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by Zoo Nanny

Victory: Lackland Sexual Assaults Petition Finds Success - Causes Blog
House committee hearing to address sexual assault in military | Reuters

I still think it's funny how you think a federal case of military sexual abuse correlates to a State animal issue.

Besides that, has the hearings happened from the first case? If not, it isn't a success yet. Besides that, is there actual proof that it came from the petition. No, the site that promotes online petitions don't count.

The second link had 60 people come forward with their case! How can that be ignored? 60 victims!!! It isn't just a random letter or petition started that caused anything it was the SIXTY people. The story just made it seem like the petition matter, when I doubt it did since nobody has officially said so.

Keep believing in nothing. I'll stick to my FACTS.

[jarich]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

I agree with your overall statement because it's true. We were given our freedom, as it's been called, and we screwed it up. We now have to take our lumps.

Here are the parts I disagree with.



Partially false. It's also highly hypocritical because without those breeders you wouldn't ever have what you have for a reasonable price. Also, I've said it before and I'll say it again. I would consider the reptile trade farmers and not mills. Breeders take care of their animals, they aren't sitting in waste or malnourished. They simply breed them on a regular basis and don't interact with them on a pet level. It's basic care and that's it. It has done wonders for a lot of species.



I wish venomous and giant keepers would share in this thought.



Really? I'm sure the monitor keepers would beg to differ how much these developments have helped them understand them from a captive standpoint. Plenty of species of reptiles are in conservation programs because we developed those items so we can stop them from being wiped out in the wild.

We are agreeing far too much lately Aaron, so Im going to nitpick.

I would disagree with your above assessment in that you think reptiles need be a reasonable price. I dont think they should be, and regardless, I dont think its only due to large scale breeders that there are reasonable prices. For example, BPs and Boscs are heavily imported and cheaply purchased animals anyway, so its hard to say large scale breeders set the price for anything except the morphs and rare lines.

(Incidentally, all my animals are either rescues or unwanted animals I got off CL, so it would seem my hypocrisy does have some limits. )

As for breeders being 'farmers', I would say rather that they are like 'ranchers', although thats just semantics. The difference between puppy mills and large scale ranching/feed lots is just as small though. We just accept it with feed animals whereas we dont with certain lovable pets. (people who would never buy a dog from a puppy mill will often gladly buy the cheapest battery raised chickens from Walmart) One could argue that the lives of cows, sheep, chickens, etc have not actually been 'improved' by large scale ranching either, merely that there are more of them to eat as a result, and that we are able to keep them confined in small spaces better. So I suppose your analogy is apt, though I have a hard time seeing it as an improvement. The big difference though is that ranchers and puppy breeders often just do it as a job or for the lifestyle, whereas I am not aware of any reptile breeder who got into it other than through passion for the animals directly. This is just one reason why I dont have a problem at all with small scale breeders, though admittedly its hard to say exactly where that line is between large and small scale. It is also the reason why I have trouble believing that husbandry wouldnt improve through time without any large scale breeding. Monitors have never been bred in any large scale sense, rather the passion of a few individual keepers and researchers led to those developments.

As for the monitors and advancements in keeping, I am not aware of any advancements made by companies (research and development) rather than individuals, which would not be a part of what I was speaking towards in that previous statement. A better example would be reptiles like chameleons or bearded dragons, where developments like better UV lights, vitamin supplements and misting systems have benefited husbandry a great deal in the last 20-30 years. However, what I was saying is that these advances towards the ease of husbandry of reptiles, while admirable, still save fewer animals than die in the increased reptile trade as a whole. I think fewer animals are saved by the change from heat rocks to UTH's than are killed by ignorant owners. Sort of like saying GMO products are a cure for poverty. While it may help some, it doesnt make up for the situation as a whole, and never will.