Close Call with a King Cobra

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by millertime89

I'm not saying training doesn't make a difference, I'm a proponent of a training and licensing system regarding hots, I just don't think the training and skill gap is as different between zoos and skilled private keepers who take their responsibility and the danger involved in keeping these animals lightly.

Furthermore, there are always those zoos that have terrible husbandry and animal control practices when it comes to reptiles. Some are outstanding and some not so much. I've been behind the scenes with curators of reptiles at several zoos that have impressed me, but there are also zoos that do a terrible job with their herps.

I personally keep no hots and have no desire to do so, just my reflection on the industry and the attitudes there-in.

That's pretty low.

I know Frank has given up on this debate as he is probably already smacking his head off a wall since it'll probably get the idea well before you will.

I would like you to pull out as many statistics about zoo bites and their deaths and "loose cobra in apartment building" stories. I don't think you'll find as nearly many.

There are FAR more people uneducated who keep venomous snakes privately then professionally. It's plain to see by the fact they are sold quite easily at shows and for not very high dollars. Hell, you can look on youtube and see the lack of skill/mentor or even respect for the animals.

Please stop posting in an otherwise worthwhile thread.

[Will0W783]

Originally posted by Aaron_S: There are FAR more people uneducated who keep venomous snakes privately then professionally. It's plain to see by the fact they are sold quite easily at shows and for not very high dollars. Hell, you can look on youtube and see the lack of skill/mentor or even respect for the animals.

While I do keep venomous snakes privately, I have to agree that there is a difference between careless, untrained private keepers and zookeepers. You're not going to get a job as a zookeeper unless you can demonstrate skills, experience and quick thinking with the animals, whereas it's far too easy and cheap for people who have no idea what they are doing to buy them at shows. It is a tricky subject; I do not think that everyone should be banned from keeping venomous snakes because some people don't bother to do it properly, but I would not be opposed to tighter regulation and required training. I've recently found some terrifying YouTube videos demonstrating people working with venomous that have NO business doing so.

I understand that some people are against private ownership of venomous snakes as a blanket rule, and that can get my dander up, but I apologize to Frank if I seemed too defensive. I know that he is extremely knowledgeable and a valuable asset to this forum.

[bronxzoofrank]

Hi all,

Thanks for your interest and support. I'm used to this, and tend not to post articles dealing with venomous animals. Statistics do., of course, show that bites, serious injuries and deaths are more common in private collections.

Comparing the skills of a private to a professional keeper is not a useful exercise. In the private sector, one generally does not have a proper frame of reference to make the comparison. Before my zoo years, I worked for several major animal importers in NYC..back when there were no regs; and I learned from people who, to older zoo curators and such, are legends. Venomous snakes were not a big part of the trade, but we sold all sorts os mammals and herps to zoos. I was working with chimps, ocelots, coatis, giant anteaters and so on by age 13. But when I entered the zoo world I realized I had gained valuable skills, but was clueless as to many aspects of the profession as well.

But aside from all that, look at it this way: how many venomous snake keeping private people have, on hand, the number of vials of the appropriate antivenin (at several thousand dollars per vial, and some of which is very hard to import, even for zoos -- last year, as a consultant, I had to hire Thai-speaking friends to track down money that had been spent by a major zoo for antivenin - process took 7 months, etc) on hand, the commitment of the local police dept or ambulance to respond instantly when notified, and a backup transportation method if that fails, the resources and a plan to get more antivenin choppered to the hospital if, as often happens, more is needed, a trained person present at all times when a cage is opened so that snake can be secured or killed and first aid can be started, this same person must know, and keep up with changes to, the care protocol which must be started as soon as a bite occurs...ie.. limiting spread of venom, process of which varies by group and in some cases by species (the victim cannot move after being bitten, lest venom circulate more quickly); instant updating on the many changes that occur re antivenin needed (snake venom composition evolves quite rapidly as prey species evolve defenses, and this greatly affects treatment), please understand - this is just a quick rambling and poorly worded, sorry) example of some of the considerations that need be addressed; in my long experience, and in among my contacts worldwide, no private keeper has taken care of all of the above).

Re the often voiced criticism that pros are lucky to have such jobs and shouldn't deny others - I am very lucky; I also worked as an attorney, which I hated, first, in order to help support a mother and sister who needed such from an early age; gave up that lucrative career (midtown Manhattan law firm) to work for ridiculously low salaries (even at highest levels within zoo field), always worked 2-3 side jobs (some related, others not at all), and at an age when, in almost any other fields I'd be well set, am still working away at a variety of jobs (most of which thankfully, are interesting)...there are other down and up sides, point being that working with animals, with few exceptions, involves sacrifices for most people.

Again, thanks for the support and for seeing my side, I have a hectic schedule now so will need to hold off on most comments if it such would involve a re-hash of this and earlier posts. Best, Frank

[Will0W783]

Those are good points Frank;the resources available for zoos and large institutions are different from those available for private keepers. In many cases, unless you have a medical affiliation, you cannot import antivenins for private usage. There are permits and procedures involved that a private keeper cannot do. The best we can hope is to know which antivenins the local zoos stock, and have arrangements with them, as well as detailed protocol on how to treat bites from each species you keep. It also helps to have a person designated as the one legally allowed to make decisions if you are unconscious- many hospitals do not know how to properly treat an exotic bite, so it's vital to have someone else who knows how to be able to speak for you should you lose consciousness. So, sure, most private keepers cannot afford to have a stock of antivenin in their own homes, nor can they get the paperwork in order to do so if they can afford it. No one should work with the animals alone; there should always be a second knowledgeable person on hand to assist, and everyone should keep a "Hot Book" - detailed files of the species and number of each that they keep, photos of the animals in question, protocol for treating a bite from each species, as well as a copy of insurance cards and medical records. The folder should also contain an Antivenin Index for referencing antivenins, and the location where each necessary antivenin can be procured. Do all private hot keepers do this? Probably not....but it's how they should.

[bronxzoofrank]

Those are good points Frank;the resources available for zoos and large institutions are different from those available for private keepers. In many cases, unless you have a medical affiliation, you cannot import antivenins for private usage...

Hello,

Thanks again, but, judging from similar conversations held over the years, I think we've covered all of use. I'd rather not get into alternative means of preparing for emergencies, as there are no effective ones...the steps you've outlined, however well-intentioned, are not in any way a substitute for a properly designed and funded emergency protocol. Forgive my saying, but it needs to be said: if someone followed this advice and believed it, they would gain a false sense of security which could very well cost them their life. There is no other way to put it, unfortunately., One cannot arrange for coverage with zoos, one cannot assure that antivenin will be available elsewhere if current supply is not enough, and so on.....even were one aboe to afford this, no zoo would entertain the idea, due to the liability issues (I've advised zoos on the legalities involved, you can trust me on this).

This will all likely be moot in time, in any event. As far as I know, those states that have not legislated against venomous snake ownership will do so in time; in most cases, the matter isn't brought up until a bite or fatality occurs, as there are not all that many people involved, and no real economic incentives one way or the other.

If anyone wishes to explore a career in herpetology, I'll be happy to offer what advice I can.,

Best, Frank

[Will0W783]

With all due respect, Frank, that's YOUR opinion. I'm honestly getting a bit frustrated, but I don't really have the energy nor the desire to argue with you anymore. I take the best precautions that I can to make my (realistically very dangerous) hobby as safe as possible. There is no way to remove all the risk of keeping venomous snakes, but private keepers accept this and make the CHOICE to keep the animals anyway; that's the crux of it really..it's a CHOICE. And it's a choice that we have the right to make. I don't care how much zoo experience you may have, it's arrogant to say that your opinion is the only correct one. I'm done with this thread.

This will all likely be moot in time, in any event. As far as I know, those states that have not legislated against venomous snake ownership will do so in time; in most cases, the matter isn't brought up until a bite or fatality occurs, as there are not all that many people involved, and no real economic incentives one way or the other.

Oh, and thanks for making the threat about legislation against our animals. Yes, I know that many states have laws against keeping venomous. I'm not against regulating it, or requiring training before one can get a permit. However, it's not the government's place to tell us that we can't own them at all. America is a country of personal freedom. The herping community has enough problems with laws being enacted almost all the time against constrictors and other snakes....it's a constant worry to us.

Anyway, I will respectfully agree to disagree with you Frank. I'd appreciate if you'd do the same for me.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by Will0W783

...And it's a choice that we have the right to make. ....

I believe this therein lies a problem. I believe it's a privilege and not a right.

[Will0W783]

If it's a privilege, then we keepers need to do all we can to protect our privilege and to ensure that we are trained and prepared as much as possible.

I still personally feel that the government has no right to tell me I can't own venomous snakes, or any snakes for that matter. They aren't going to become invasive, they are no threat to anyone that isn't inside my house. In my area, it is too cold for any non-native venomous to survive for more than a day.

I do support mandatory training and permits/licenses for venomous keepers, but I oppose blanket bans. My opinion, I know. You are entitled to yours. I've enjoyed many healthy fun debates with you Aaron; unlike Frank, you acknowledge that other people may have some good points even if you don't agree with them.

[bronxzoofrank]

Regulating dangerous activities is a normal function of government - seat belts, drug use, firearms, food processing, (and in NYC, the size of soft drinks!..obviously that one has some up in arms), tobacco use, and so on....

Drawing distinctions...how long a snake can live etc. - tends to strengthen the case of those seeking to regulate.

Providing opinions is of course our right. All opinions are not, where factual information is involved, however, of the same value. I'm interested in southeast Asian soft-shelled turtles, for example, and have some experience, but my opinions as to how the conservation of some of the rarer species should be handled, or what their evolutionary relationships are to one another, are not as worthwhile as those of Peter Pritchard.

[Will0W783]

So you're saying my opinions are not worth as much as yours???

[infernalis]

With all due respect... Kim, I trust you with hots. No contest.

However, when any Tom, Rick & Harry with a paypal account can simply click "order now" and have a Cobra or Mamba in their possession while living in an apartment building, populated neighbourhood or near a primary school, then I have a problem with it.

If the (often illegally) internet ordered snake should escape, (think this scenario, once it bites the owner, it's going to flee) and enters a populated area, it puts innocent people at mortal risk.

Should firefighters have to enter a burning building (a mortal risk already) only to be bitten by a scared venemous snake who's cage just broke from the heat??

Saying that hots belong in the hands of private keepers is like saying that we should be able to purchase explosives at wal mart.

Certain animals simply don't belong in the private pet trade, because unfortunatly, for every one of us with common sense, there is 2 dozen people who have none.

[bronxzoofrank]

Originally Posted by Will0W783

So you're saying my opinions are not worth as much as yours???

It is the factual information and basis for the opinion that is not as valuable, just as mine would not be as valuable in your area of expertise. Here in the US, as I understand it, all opinions are treated as equally valid in terms of the right to be expressed. But they are not, in any area of endeavor, treated the same in terms of their basis in truth, reality, etc....experts are hired to testify at trials, to consult etc, not just anyone who has an opinion. There are degrees of knowledge and expertise in all subjects.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by infernalis

With all due respect... Kim, I trust you with hots. No contest.

However, when any Tom, Rick & Harry with a paypal account can simply click "order now" and have a Cobra or Mamba in their possession while living in an apartment building, populated neighbourhood or near a primary school, then I have a problem with it.

If the (often illegally) internet ordered snake should escape, (think this scenario, once it bites the owner, it's going to flee) and enters a populated area, it puts innocent people at mortal risk.

Should firefighters have to enter a burning building (a mortal risk already) only to be bitten by a scared venemous snake who's cage just broke from the heat??

Saying that hots belong in the hands of private keepers is like saying that we should be able to purchase explosives at wal mart.

Certain animals simply don't belong in the private pet trade, because unfortunatly, for every one of us with common sense, there is 2 dozen people who have none.

I'm glad we share this opinion.

Very well said.

I don't know if it's only because I'm a parent but perspective certainly changes when that happens and there's more than me to just worry about.

[Falconeer999]

I think he's saying that the opinion of many in here are that they are following good procedures in dealing with venomous snakes (and they may be providing the absolute best they can), while he's saying the fact is that professional zoos have more resources to come up with even safer protocols, including the ability to better disaster plan because of relationships with public sector entities (hospitals, emergency responders, etc.) and the cooperation of other professional zoos who also have the same access, thus increasing the chances for a positive outcome in the case of a bite or escape.

There's only so much a private person can do, and this may be a lot, and it may be enough to save you, but a professional zoo is almost always going to have access to a lot more assistance than a private individual (also due in large part from requirements from liability insurance providers).

[infernalis]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

I'm glad we share this opinion.

Very well said.

I don't know if it's only because I'm a parent but perspective certainly changes when that happens and there's more than me to just worry about.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to look at some of the idiocies posted on youtube to actually come to the conclusion that 90% of the human population is lacking a chromosome or two.

Mr. tough guy buys a "wicked looking" viper, puts it on display so his buddies will call him awesome, The drinking begins, smoke a little pot, "hey man I dare you to put a mouse in there" "awe dude that would be wicked cool"

TAG

"oh wow man, you ok?" call 911!!!