Reptile Guru Line Male x Black Dragon Female Clutch at Vital Exotics

Vital Exotics · 12-02-12, 09:59 PM

I stopped by to check on the Monitors before I headed out of town with my wife and daughters and found an early Christmas present: A clutch of 17 good looking and 1 possible infertile eggs from a Reptile Guru High Yellow Male to a Black Dragon Female. This pair was introduced on Nov 5th and originally I had the Male Black paired up with another female Black (I have 3 Black females) in the month prior, and I never caught any copulations between the two, although that female is a LTC WC and she is not exactly "easy to work with", so I thought that maybe swapping males when the next Black female would cycle would get things going. The very same day I introed the Female Black and male Reptile Guru and they were locked the same day all day, and rather than swap the Black male back in, I figured I better leave them paired up to completion, as to not "muddy" the breeding with the possibility of not knowing which male fathered the clutch. When I swapped males, my female Sumatran was also starting a cycle so I put the Black male with her in the other large enclosure I use for breedings/introductions, and they were also copulating that same day. So the same situation applies there, as far as keeping them paired and not introducing a different male back in. Lots of people and myself included seem to want to know how the Black Dragon genetics work so now I should hopefully have 2 clutches to show the results.

The Female Black Dragon clutch came in at 25 days post first confirmed copulation/introduction (same day), and she is a small girl at just over 3' long (bred to a 7.5' male). 17 or 18 eggs in there made her feel and look like a football.

The Sumatran female should lay soon although her last clutch was 25 eggs (all still look good in incubator) and she laid 35 days post first confirmed copulation. She is larger at about 4' long, but she also looks very large at this point.

This Female Black Dragon laid a clutch of infertiles for me about 2 weeks after I got her, about 3 months ago. Interesting thing about her is, she has laid 4 infertile clutches for my friend Jim Heck who has had her for the last year or so, and the one for me, and she ate a few eggs from each clutch when they were infertile, and did not always nest properly, but this clutch was nested in a nice burrow, 2 feet deep, with an enlarged chamber at the end, all nicely packed in there similar to my other female. They were 85 degrees. I caught her when she was done, pulled the eggs and left her alone. When I returned she had built up a large mound over the entire area similar to what I saw with the last clutch of my other female.

I will post results of the next clutch when I find it. From here on out I will intro the Black Dragon Male to the Black Females to make some "pure" ones and see how that works out. Thanks.

Photos:

BarelyBreathing · 12-02-12, 11:41 PM

Well that's exciting. I'd love to see how they turn out. Please keep up updated.

infernalis · 12-03-12, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarelyBreathing

Well that's exciting. I'd love to see how they turn out. Please keep up updated.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^this^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

nick654377 · 12-03-12, 01:36 AM

Bad a** hope they all hatch for you. Congrats

**millertime89** · 12-03-12, 12:07 PM

Congrats bud, really looking forward to seeing how this turns out. I can't imagine how excited you guys are.

Pirarucu · 12-03-12, 06:43 PM

I can't wait to see these. It'd be very cool if they turned out pure black with very defined, contrasting yellow spots..

Vital Exotics · 12-04-12, 07:15 AM

Thanks again guys. I will keep things updated on the progress. It will be interesting to see what hatches out of this clutch.

Gregg M · 12-04-12, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pirarucu

I can't wait to see these. It'd be very cool if they turned out pure black with very defined, contrasting yellow spots..

I do not see this being the case because it looks to be an actual melanistic animal. This is normally cause by a genetic mutation that is either recessive or dominant. It is possible it can produce what you are talking about but not likely. This pairing will most likely produce a half clutch of melanistics and a half clutch of variable normals or it may produce all variable normals that are het for melanistic depending on how the gene is working.

I am really looking foward to seeing the results of this pairing. I think the black dragons might be a dominant melanistic gene. They are found with normal type Varanus salvator macromaculatus in the wild.

Those neonates are going to be a 3 subspecies intergrade (V. s. macromaculatus X bivittatus X marmoratus) so it should be interesting to see the variation in that clutch.

Congrats on the clutch.

Pirarucu · 12-04-12, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregg M

I do not see this being the case because it looks to be an actual melanistic animal. This is normally cause by a genetic mutation that is either recessive or dominant. It is possible it can produce what you are talking about but not likely. This pairing will most likely produce a half clutch of melanistics and a half clutch of variable normals or it may produce all variable normals that are het for melanistic depending on how the gene is working.

I am really looking foward to seeing the results of this pairing. I think the black dragons might be a dominant melanistic gene. They are found with normal type Varanus salvator macromaculatus in the wild.

Those neonates are going to be a 3 subspecies intergrade (V. s. macromaculatus X bivittatus X marmoratus) so it should be interesting to see the variation in that clutch.

Congrats on the clutch.

I know it's got almost no chance of happening like that, that's why I said "if". LOL I know genetics, I'm betting you're correct.

Gregg M · 12-04-12, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pirarucu

I know it's got almost no chance of happening like that, that's why I said "if". LOL I know genetics, I'm betting you're correct.

Oooops, didnt mean to make it sound like you didnt know genetics. I just like to explain my reasoning in detail. Sorry about that. LOL.

Pirarucu · 12-04-12, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregg M

Oooops, didnt mean to make it sound like you didnt know genetics. I just like to explain my reasoning in detail. Sorry about that. LOL.

LOL, no problem. I'm betting it's a dominant trait or an incomplete dominant, but I suppose we won't know for sure until these eggs hatch.

**millertime89** · 12-05-12, 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregg M

I do not see this being the case because it looks to be an actual melanistic animal. This is normally cause by a genetic mutation that is either recessive or dominant. It is possible it can produce what you are talking about but not likely. This pairing will most likely produce a half clutch of melanistics and a half clutch of variable normals or it may produce all variable normals that are het for melanistic depending on how the gene is working.

I am really looking foward to seeing the results of this pairing. I think the black dragons might be a dominant melanistic gene. They are found with normal type Varanus salvator macromaculatus in the wild.

Those neonates are going to be a 3 subspecies intergrade (V. s. macromaculatus X bivittatus X marmoratus) so it should be interesting to see the variation in that clutch.

Congrats on the clutch.

I hope you're right, but I've just got this gut feeling that its a locality thing similar to the melanistic beaded lizards. God I hope its genetic though, dom/co-dom would be my preference.

varanus_mad · 12-12-12, 05:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregg M

Oooops, didnt mean to make it sound like you didnt know genetics. I just like to explain my reasoning in detail. Sorry about that. LOL.

Out of interest Gregg have you seen the second type of "komaini" the ones that start out with a pattern but go black later on.

Vital Exotics · 12-12-12, 05:48 AM

varanus_mad, I have seen the types (they are not true v. s. komaini) that start out a dark brown color (sometimes in certain light and conditions they appear almost black) but they have a slight pattern show thru on the back/body and usually have quite a bit of pattern on the throat and belly area. They seem to "black out" or darken up with age, until at about a year or so of age, they appear almost black with exception to the pattern on the belly and neck that is usually visible for some time until they are older. I think these are either an intergrade between the "normals" and the v. komaini or possibly just a separate locality. There is not clear cut data about what comes from where over there in Indo, so it seems like very few people actually really know what is going on with all these different "black" Salvators. This clutch and hopefully my next one due any day now will be pretty exciting to see what influence the v. komaini (these two "blacks" that were bred this round are true komaini) have on the color of the hatchlings.

AjaMichelle · 12-12-12, 11:33 AM

Congratulations! Thanks so much for sharing!