How does a constrictor know when to let go? - Page 2

knox · 08-13-12, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wildside

Not exactly... If you place to fingers on your wrist or your jugular then you would be feeling pressure from the blood flow etc. If you put your hand on your chest then you would be more or less looking for vibrations from the echo.

I corrected that statement. I am trying to type while watching t.v.

Ventricular contractions create a pulse in the distal regions of the body.

knox · 08-13-12, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyRhoads

Well yes, but that seems very strange to wonder if the snake can actually feel a palpable heartbeat all the way inside the chest rather than pulses closer to the surface.

I don't believe they do. At all. I think they just squeeze until they feel no more movement and then squeeze some more.

RandyRhoads · 08-13-12, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by knox

Definite Asystole. No matter how much the SA node is firing, the myocardium can't contract against blood that has no place to go.

Which would eventually cause myocardial ischemia resulting in the firing of all internal pacemakers causing V Fib, correct?

Wildside · 08-13-12, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by knox

I don't believe they do. At all. I think they just squeeze until they feel no more movement and then squeeze some more.

I don't believe they do anymore either but for a much simpler reason. My snakes are still constricting prey that doesn't have a heartbeat.

moshirimon · 08-13-12, 07:57 PM

I think certain snakes know better than others. my retic would hold the rat until it was dead. my boa will hold it for hours as if she's just making sure it will be dead

knox · 08-13-12, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyRhoads

Which would eventually cause myocardial ischemia resulting in the firing of all internal pacemakers causing V Fib, correct?

I would say no... The escape rate of the AV node and Ventricles is not equal to the action potential of the myocardial cells.

VF doesn't occur from lack of heart beats, it occurs from electrical anomalies in the cells. However, those with former MIs are definitely at a higher risk for VT and VF due to the damage done to the myocardium. Whether it would be that rapid with constriction is doubtful.

RandyRhoads · 08-13-12, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by knox

I would say no... The escape rate of the AV node and Ventricles is not equal to the action potential of the myocardial cells.

VF doesn't occur from lack of heart beats, it occurs from electrical anomalies in the cells. However, those with former MIs are definitely at a higher risk for VT and VF due to the damage done to the myocardium. Whether it would be that rapid with constriction is doubtful.

Good to know! I was thinking as a last ditch effort to reperfuse tissue the heart would start firing any pacemaker it could.

knox · 08-13-12, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyRhoads

Good to know! I was thinking as a last ditch effort to reperfuse tissue the heart would start firing any pacemaker it could.

That is a well founded suspicion, as the SA node and Ventricles definitely have their own escape rate (their own "pacemakers"). However, even they wouldn't do any good.

Nice to see you know a bit of cardiology

knox · 08-13-12, 08:15 PM

And I have to correct one statement I made up there.

EVERY movement of the heart has to do with the action potential of the myocardial cells. However, they won't start firing at VT or VF rates simply from a lack of perfusion.

Sorry about that.

RandyRhoads · 08-13-12, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by knox

That is a well founded suspicion, as the SA node and Ventricles definitely have their own escape rate (their own "pacemakers"). However, even they wouldn't do any good.

Nice to see you know a bit of cardiology

Me? Nah... I'm just a stupid redneck... lmao...

I'm stoked I could talk about this with someone with medical knowledge who knows what they're talking about! I would have been pondering on this one for a while

knox · 08-13-12, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyRhoads

Me? Nah... I'm just a stupid redneck... lmao...

I'm stoked I could talk about this with someone with medical knowledge who knows what they're talking about! I would have been pondering on this one for a while

I have a way to go, yet...

Brently · 08-13-12, 08:53 PM

If I was to throw my two cents out there I would say that it is an instictual response learned over millenia of ancestry. I would guess that it is a distinct feel combined with sense response from prey item and specific amounts of time of constriction. That is just my thought.

Rogue628 · 08-13-12, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moshirimon

I think certain snakes know better than others. my retic would hold the rat until it was dead. my boa will hold it for hours as if she's just making sure it will be dead

I have some that do each. IMO, I think alot of it has to do with what the animal has been conditioned to eat as well. I have a few animals that I feed f/t and live to....it doesn't matter to them if it's really alive or dead, the seem to hang onto their food for about the same amount of time. (these are my king, boa, and two royals)

My two dumerils and carpet were eating live before I got them. Most of their meals are f/t now (I've fed live a couple of times waiting for a new shipment of feeders to come in) and each of them will hold onto their food for a long time as if it were live. (these are also adult animals BTW).

My burms have always eaten f/t, with an occasional live one thrown in when waiting for a new shipment to come in (I can count on one hand how many times each have taken live and still have digits left over). My bigger burm will constrict her f/t for a couple of minutes, as if to make sure it's not alive and my smaller burm will pretty much start eating off the tongs without attempting to "kill" her food most times. The couple of times I have fed her live, she held onto it for a long time, I'm assuming her way of making sure it's dead. I also had switching issues with her when she was younger and was practically hand fed for about 6 months (she's a little over a year old now).

You can take my feeding experiences and observations with my animals and apply them to the subject accordingly.

Also, has any noticed a difference in what their animals eat (f/t vs p/k or live) according to that animal's feed mode? I've noticed that my carpet's feed mode isn't what it used to be when I first got her. I'm not sure if it's because I've been feeding her better meals on a more regular basis than her previous owners, as well as feeding f/t now, so she's not quite as hungry like she once probably was. I'm not sure how relevant it would be to this thread but thought I'd throw that out there as well.

Mutimbo · 08-14-12, 04:43 AM

To find out if they release when they stop feeling movement, next feeding of F/T, when you see the snake starting to relax grab and wiggle the tail of the prey item. If they begin to squeeze tighter again its probably movement. Just throwing it out there.

RandyRhodes; It makes my day to know that there are rednecks in Cali! LOL

Will0W783 · 08-14-12, 07:18 AM

My snakes all eat f/t prey, and they all constrict it for varying lengths of time. I have some snakes that will just suck it down without ever wrapping it up and others who coil it for sometimes half an hour before eating it.
I have tried to tug or wiggle the prey and they do seem to tighten around it more, but that could just be because they don't want it taken away.

I do think that snakes instinctually sense clues about the prey's state...a struggling, panicking prey will have a pounding heart, twitch and scrabble. Once it is dead, all the muscles will relax and it will go limp. I think it is the sudden relaxation of all the muscles that the snakes sense rather than a heartbeat or pulse, as this is a very noticeable, sudden change that could be felt in all the coils as sudden loss of resistance.
However, when we condition our snakes to eat f/t prey, they instinctually know they must coil and "kill" it, but there is no signal of death...the prey never suddenly relaxes as it's already dead and limp. Without that signal, the snake doesn't instinctually know when to let go and must judge.

Just my $0.02