Hognose venom "debate" over.

[StudentoReptile]

Originally Posted by Will0W783

@ StudentoReptile....I too have seen too many videos of people taking chances with their hots. I do handle my hognose...he hasn't bitten me yet, but I'm careful to wash my hands immediately before and maybe now I will treat him even more carefully!

Yeah, I hope I wasn't implying that people should never handle their western hogs. I don't think they're THAT dangerous. But in light of all that...er, well, has been brought to light (lol), those of us who do keep hognose might start exercising a tad more caution when opening the tub. I'll admit back when I had my little baby hogs, I was always a little tense around them, especially around feeding time...something I never felt around my kings, or my African house snakes, or ratsnakes. Even at that point, I had seen a few photos of what a western hog could do, so while I still handled them a lot, I was a LOT more careful getting them out of the tubs, and watching where their heads were at all times, etc.

I saw a video of a guy holding a Wagler's viper and shedding it by hand. Geez...I mean, they are insanely docile snakes usually, but any snake can get cranky when you're pulling shed off of it! I use the gloves and hooks to handle mine, even though I could probably get away with not being tagged. Why take the risk? It could be the last one you'll ever take.

I've also seen Viperkeeper (who I've met and generally like) pet his black spitting cobra in a Youtube video...that really peeved me off...it is NEVER ok to pet a cobra. He was ticking it and laughing "tickle the black beast"....IMO that shouldn't be online, because other people are going to copy it not knowing their animals and end up dead!

Yeah, there's some photo floating around the web right now of a green mamba drinking water from someone's hand. There's a part of us that is like, "Yeah, that's totally awesome, and bad***!" But reason has to kick in. That is playing with some deadly fire. Regardless of how experienced and acutely-aware of the risks a person may be, and absolutely trusting of the snake involved, thats the kind of behavior that I would not allow photos or videos of, because like you said, it gets spread like wildfire on the web and somewhere, someone else is going to try to replicate it...and fail.

[Gregg M]

Originally Posted by Terranaut

To Saw
I totaly love what you have written here. One of the most complete explanations of anything ever asked on this site that I have read so far. I am sure the OP took a ton of knowledge away from this. I do hope anyone thinking of keeping these reads this to understand what they have and what they should do in this situation. Given the length of your post and the fact that some others have already said they did not read the entire thing I have decided to summarize in short.

The fact that there is a Phd at the end of a name does not mean the person is an expert on hognose venom or snakes, period. And SAW even admitted to not having the proper literature of the studies done on hognose venom.

However Dr, Bryan Grieg Fry has sampled hognose venom and concludes they are indeed venomous. What they deliver in a bite is NOT "toxic saliva". It has been proven that venom is not a modified saliva but something altogether different.

Originally Posted by Terranaut

1: not venomous technically but venomous with a nasty bite if it happens.

How can something not be technically venomous but be venomous with a toxic bite? Makes no sense at all.

Originally Posted by Terranaut

2: you will be ok unless you have a major reaction to the toxins

You will be ok even if you do have a reaction. You will not suffer any real reaction if you get it off your finger fast. You will not have a reaction if the rear fangs are not engaged during the bite. It is that simple.

Originally Posted by Terranaut

3: take steps in handling to not allow this to happen due to #1

This should be done before or after handling any reptile.

Originally Posted by Terranaut

4: (now this is my own $.02) get that sucker off ASAP!!!!

A hognose snakes rostral scale makes for a great pry point. Pull back on the rostral and roll your finger out. You get them off in seconds like that and it does not harm the snake.

[Terranaut]

Did you just honnestly call me out over a post that was obviously in jest??
Put down the mouse and step away from the keyboard. Everything will be ok. Although a lost sense of humour can be dangerous I think in your case you can find it again.
Seriously my summary was in fun. Not discussing the matter itself or debating the toxicology of hog oral secretions using published papers isn't something to stick someone over. Also rather than trying to knock Saw's post or point out any shortfallings should we appreciate the time it took to share this with us. It was his first fricken post man. Feel free to fill in the blanks but come on, can't we be more constructive?
Way to much negativity on here lately.

[Gregg M]

Originally Posted by Terranaut

Did you just honnestly call me out over a post that was obviously in jest??
Put down the mouse and step away from the keyboard. Everything will be ok. Although a lost sense of humour can be dangerous I think in your case you can find it again.
Seriously my summary was in fun. Not discussing the matter itself or debating the toxicology of hog oral secretions using published papers isn't something to stick someone over. Also rather than trying to knock Saw's post or point out any shortfallings should we appreciate the time it took to share this with us. It was his first fricken post man. Feel free to fill in the blanks but come on, can't we be more constructive?
Way to much negativity on here lately.

Ooooops. LOL.
I did not know your post was in jest.

As far as SAWs post goes, I do not think that misinformation should be Ok because there is a Phd at the end of his name. Giving nformation without khowing the full scope, no matter how much time is put into it, is still wrong.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by StudentoReptile

Yeah, I hope I wasn't implying that people should never handle their western hogs. I don't think they're THAT dangerous...

Maybe it's just me but I see a lot of times hognoses suggested as beginner snakes and no one asks anyone's age. If Melissa had a reaction like this, and she's an adult, what could happen to a child who doesn't have the same size or immune system? They are THAT dangerous. Especially since they aren't handled with hooks or even worse, handled around children without a second thought.

Melissa, I'd hope it's getting better by now

[jaleely]

Hey guys...whew!
Okay, So i was going to address names but blah. lol I can type almost back up to speed today so instead i'm just going to ramble : )

As for the compliment on my hands...thank you! At least one looks decent anyway *lol*

Progress: The swelling has gone down, starting from where it started to swell. So in the first pic you see a shiney puffy red finger...and it started receeding from the tip of that finger. It is still swollen a *lot* on the back of my hand (inches away from the bite zone) and down past my wrist and almost to my elbow.
However, that initial bite finger is almost to normal. There is a little bit of damage to the tip of the finger in the capillaries, i think. It feels almost like a healing burn. Very strange.

But, no sign of infection and overall it is much better.

I did go to the doctor, on a routine visit, and had her look at the hand anyway. All they wanted to do was give me a tetanus shot.

When it first happened, i did try to ice it, just because the swelling was so tight it hurt. Felt a little better but of course didn't do any good.
I also did try to wrap the finger, gently...and i did find that that DID help. I slept with a lose wrap last night, and it protected the skin (which was tight and sensitive) from flopping around in the covers, and i feel helped with the swelling. Everywhere the wrap was, is lower...whereas on my arm it is the same size as yesterday.

I went to a low dose of ibuprofin, which i had been taking anyway for other issues. I've been trying to drink a lot of water to help flush toxins out, and hopefully be easier on my body. Hey we're bags of mostly water so water can't hurt : )

Lastly, I do admit i feel like a dunce. Both times this same snake has bitten me, it's been a feeding response. Seems to me I need to figure out how to wash my hands better or something. I had been handling our pyxie frog the first time, and he only bit me for about 60 seconds, and i held him in a water dish for a few seconds, and he hopped right off.

This time, i just could not get the fish smell off of my hands. I should say, i washed well, and then after the bite started smelling my hands and thought "yup, i think i can smell fish there".
I however, could NOT get him off of my finger. I thought he was biting for about five minutes, but my husband says it was closer to ten. I know this time the snake is twice the size as the first time, and DID get his rear fanges quite engaged. I did finally have to have the hubby push on the back of the snakes jaw/head and "roll" my finger out of his mouth to get him off.
He was totally fine....kept looking around trying to find where his meal went *rolls eyes*

Anyway, thought it was good to point out the roll technique that had been previously mentioned, to make fun of myself for not washing my hands well, and show that he was on there for a while...whereas normally i think they would just bite and let go.
He just happened to bite and sink in really well right away. He bit and his fangs were IN and already locked an curved into my flesh. Believe me, i wouldn't have let him chew that long on purpose. I was shouting the whole time *lol*

Also, the doctor had no clue what to do whatsoever. I got more information here than at her office. I figured as much, but was already going since i had the day off work (since i couldn't type anyway LOL)

[jaleely]

I had a request for more pics, and will put them up this weekend. I just had to get the initial ones up...and that was hard to do one handed : )

[StudentoReptile]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

Maybe it's just me but I see a lot of times hognoses suggested as beginner snakes and no one asks anyone's age. If Melissa had a reaction like this, and she's an adult, what could happen to a child who doesn't have the same size or immune system? They are THAT dangerous. Especially since they aren't handled with hooks or even worse, handled around children without a second thought.

Melissa, I'd hope it's getting better by now

That is a good point, Aaron. Personally, they're not what I would consider a "beginner snake" anyway, not just for this reason but because hatchlings can be finicky eaters (although seriously, what colubrid isn't?). But I know they're still commonly sold as "safe" starter snakes.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by StudentoReptile

That is a good point, Aaron. Personally, they're not what I would consider a "beginner snake" anyway, not just for this reason but because hatchlings can be finicky eaters (although seriously, what colubrid isn't?). But I know they're still commonly sold as "safe" starter snakes.

Cornsnakes to answer your question! lol

[Terranaut]

I was going to say gophers. Mine hasn't missed a single meal and has a crazy feed response. I actually have never heard of finiky colubrids?? Are mine strange? Seriously now not poking fun. I know indigos eat, bull snakes eat, pine snakes , ect. So other than hogs what else is finiky? Colubrids I mean.

[kernel]

We all agree they are mildly venomous, but does anyone else think Aaron S is exaggerating? Judging by Melissa's bite, I would think it would have to be a newborn baby to die from one of their bites and even then, I don't think that would happen.

[SAW]

After reading some of the reactions to my post, I am reminded why I typically refrain from commenting on topics in Internet fora. I appreciate that some have taken the time to read my post in total and also have considered the different levels of discussion of the topic. It did require some detail, and thus it was a bit "long winded". As I am not going to respond to personal slights or to those who clearly have their "beliefs" (I stated that the point was to offer an alternative and less "advertised" consensus) re this subject, I will only bullet a few take home points and respond generally to a couple of inaccurate comments.

The definition of venom has traditionally been dependent on function, how it is used, NOT on the presence of toxins alone OR on the incidental effects of these substances on humans. Recently, one group of investigators (Fry et al. ) have HYPOTHESIZED a different definition of "venom" based on phylogenetic origins and the presence of toxins with the ASSUMPTION of function. A number of long-term investigators and I do not agree that at this time there is sufficient evidence to change the definition. It certainly may change in the future, but it is premature at this time as function of so many of the species by this criteria labeled as "venomous" (e.g. bearded dragons, Pogona spp. etc.) do not evidence any use of toxins in their oral secretions as "venoms". This includes Heterodon as these snakes swallow their prey alive and show no "subtle" prey subjugation assistance via their Duvernoy's secretions. Perhaps, some extensive and carefully conducted future observations will support the use of the term "venom" for these, but the current evidence is lacking. The Fry group and my colleagues and I are currently debating this and you will be seeing more about this in the near future.

Regarding "misinformation":
I purposely cited our recent book and previous review of Heterodon bites in order to direct interested parties to more detailed discussion of this fascinating topic. Obviously, a few contributors here didn't read that. Briefly, there are only a few publications re the Duvernoy's secretions of Heterodon spp. The papers by Hill and Mackessy and Young only demonstrate the presence of toxins, not function. Following the criteria that this proves "venom", suggests that humans are venomous too.

As noted above, I am well aware of the literature and our book and paper mentioned above include detailed critical review of ALL of the literature re Heterodon Duvernoy's secretions vs venom. I never stated that I had not"reviewed the literature".

I included my titles as one often does not know who is commenting in Internet fora. I was not presenting pretense; rather, taking responsibility for my comments and, yes, there is over 35 years professional experience behind them. As I said, I am not trying to change beliefs, just assure that interested readers are aware of "both sides of the story".

One last comment re misinformation:
Never ignore a symptomatic snakebite based on the reported experience of others. I have treated a handful of Heterodon bites, as well as a large number of other "colubrid" bites and some were inconsequential and a few, such as the one we published, we're significant.
DO NOT take non-steroidal anti-inflammatory meds after any snakebite as this can increase bleeding tendencies; again, the effects of many non-front-fanged colubrids bites (including that of Heterodon) are poorly characterized. My apologies for the additional "long-winded" post, but the subject is not just "semantics".
It's been an interesting exchange and I hope it has been infoative to open-minded readers. SAW

[SAW]

Forgot to add one last thing:
Jaleely:
It is unfortunate that the physicians who reviewed your bite were likely unfamiliar with such cases. This is one of the reasons why David Warrell, Dan Keyler, Julian White and I published our book specifically on this problem. Part of the intention was to inform the medical community about the appropriate management of non-front-fanged colubroid bites. Even so, as I commented, there is little info about many; thus, it is a clinical standard to follow protocol similar to that for other snakebites.

Contrary to some of what has been posted in this string, as long as the bite is presented early, some of the treatments that I mentioned can help in some cases. As I also stated, it is likely that the effects in some cases are a combination of Duvernoy's secretion (and possibly other oral secretions as well as the ducts from all of these glands in Heterodon spp. open generally into the oral cavity and not in the gingival sulcus [folds of the gums] of any specific dentition) and Type I hypersensitivity.

Truly finally, although as I said I cannot offer you formal medical advice sight unseen, I suggest that in addition to my previous suggestions that you refrain from placing pressure on the bite site (even if this feels "better"). If the wound does not improve shortly, definitely have another medical review as if wound management is indicated, the earlier it is instituted, the better.

SAW

[StudentoReptile]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

Cornsnakes to answer your question! lol

That's debatable. But I don't want to derail this into a discussion about the feeding habits of various colubrids.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by kernel

We all agree they are mildly venomous, but does anyone else think Aaron S is exaggerating? Judging by Melissa's bite, I would think it would have to be a newborn baby to die from one of their bites and even then, I don't think that would happen.

I'm more worried about an allergic reaction just like someone may be to a bee sting. Allow your child to be stung by a bee and be deathly allergic and you'll see if I'm exaggerating.

The thing is we don't know if someone is allergic or not or may have a seriously bad reaction until they are bit. Why take the chance ever?

From Melissa's reaction and how tight it was I would like to see you care for a child going through that kind of ordeal. It wouldn't be fun. You obviously are not a parent.