bad advice in shops

[StudentoReptile]

Originally Posted by bladeblaster

they are not an exception to the 'rule' at all. There are just one of many snakes that behave this way.

It's funny because none of the snakes I have encountered know anout these 'rules' that herpers make up for them.

Well then, it sounds like you're really on to something here. Perhaps you start should documenting your findings and compare notes with other field biologists. I am curious as to exactly what species you have observed such "social behavior" in, and precisely what areas.

For someone who seems to be very adamantly against blanket statements and generalizations and mere opinions, I would like to know if the same behaviors are being observed in similar species all across the U.S. and not just California (where as you claim most of your experience has been).

BTW, I would suggest practicing what you preach and doing a little more research as to exactly what the scientific community considers as "social behavior" and what criteria qualifies a particular species to be a social animal.

I'm not discrediting your personal experiences, but have you considered that perhaps you just happen to be particularly lucky at finding snakes? Again, I would like to hear experiences from other avid field herpers in the same area(s).

[bladeblaster]

Originally Posted by StudentoReptile

Well then, it sounds like you're really on to something here. Perhaps you start should documenting your findings and compare notes with other field biologists. I am curious as to exactly what species you have observed such "social behavior" in, and precisely what areas.

For someone who seems to be very adamantly against blanket statements and generalizations and mere opinions, I would like to know if the same behaviors are being observed in similar species all across the U.S. and not just California (where as you claim most of your experience has been).

BTW, I would suggest practicing what you preach and doing a little more research as to exactly what the scientific community considers as "social behavior" and what criteria qualifies a particular species to be a social animal.

I'm not discrediting your personal experiences, but have you considered that perhaps you just happen to be particularly lucky at finding snakes? Again, I would like to hear experiences from other avid field herpers in the same area(s).

I am not extending my own experience to re-defining snake behaviour, I certainly have not experienced enough snakes to make that sort of jump. I have nothing against opinion and conjecture as long as it is not presented as fact.

I have not done any sort of documentation that could even begin to redefine how we look at snake behaviour, however I have seen enough to be sure for myself, that they are not entirely solitary animals. I certainly wouldn;t extend this to suggesting a 'community behaviour' but they certainly do not deliberately avoid each other and do not suffer any stress by being in the presence of other snakes.

[StudentoReptile]

Originally Posted by bladeblaster

I am not extending my own experience to re-defining snake behaviour, I certainly have not experienced enough snakes to make that sort of jump. I have nothing against opinion and conjecture as long as it is not presented as fact.

Well, if I witness something with my own two eyeballs occurring more than once with animals I've worked with, and have had others witness the same thing with animals they've kept....it happened = FACT. Just because it wasn't published in a scientific journal or Reptiles Magazine does not make it not valid.

It is one thing for me to come on here and say that baby ball pythons feed better on live versus f/t without ever keeping a baby BP and have no foundation or basis for my opinion. But I have kept and raised many baby BPs over the years, and in my personal experience, I get better feeding responses feeding live adult mice than I do f/t. That is my opinion based on personal experience. If others have had similar experiences, then it can reasonably be called "fact." There are a few people out there that have success feeding baby BPs f/t, but in MY experience, based on my own observations and conversations with others in the BP community, that is not the norm. (BTW, this is not about BPs eating f/t or live, so lets not go there, I'm just using this as an example).

I have not done any sort of documentation that could even begin to redefine how we look at snake behaviour, however I have seen enough to be sure for myself, that they are not entirely solitary animals. I certainly wouldn;t extend this to suggesting a 'community behaviour' but they certainly do not deliberately avoid each other and do not suffer any stress by being in the presence of other snakes.

Now see, there is a difference in nature where these animals have the ability get away from each other. With the exception of courtship and reproduction, it is my understanding that these snakes are not specifically seeking each other out, and what you are seeing is more likely a case of snake #1 entering the log from the south, and snake #2 entering from the north. They are both just seeking shelter and just so happened to select the same location. If either species is not feeling particular ophiophagus or territorial that day, they will often tolerate each others presence for the greater good; i.e. remaining in a choice hiding spot.

Things are a little bit different in captivity when you're forcing two species that will NEVER encounter each other naturally to co-exist in a relatively-small enclosed space. Since there is no field accounts of how red-tails and ball pythons interact with each other in the wild (obviously, since they're found in different continents), our only observations are in captive environments. And with very few exceptions, the results are not good.

If we were talking about keeping a cornsnake and a grey rat snake in the same enclosure, the situation may not be as dire. But again, we're talking about mixing a large neo-tropical arboreal constrictor with a small/medium savannah/grassland constrictor. Can they be kept together? Sure. Should they? No.

[bladeblaster]

Originally Posted by StudentoReptile

Well, if I witness something with my own two eyeballs occurring more than once with animals I've worked with, and have had others witness the same thing with animals they've kept....it happened = FACT. Just because it wasn't published in a scientific journal or Reptiles Magazine does not make it not valid.

It is one thing for me to come on here and say that baby ball pythons feed better on live versus f/t without ever keeping a baby BP and have no foundation or basis for my opinion. But I have kept and raised many baby BPs over the years, and in my personal experience, I get better feeding responses feeding live adult mice than I do f/t. That is my opinion based on personal experience. If others have had similar experiences, then it can reasonably be called "fact." There are a few people out there that have success feeding baby BPs f/t, but in MY experience, based on my own observations and conversations with others in the BP community, that is not the norm. (BTW, this is not about BPs eating f/t or live, so lets not go there, I'm just using this as an example).



Now see, there is a difference in nature where these animals have the ability get away from each other. With the exception of courtship and reproduction, it is my understanding that these snakes are not specifically seeking each other out, and what you are seeing is more likely a case of snake #1 entering the log from the south, and snake #2 entering from the north. They are both just seeking shelter and just so happened to select the same location. If either species is not feeling particular ophiophagus or territorial that day, they will often tolerate each others presence for the greater good; i.e. remaining in a choice hiding spot.

Things are a little bit different in captivity when you're forcing two species that will NEVER encounter each other naturally to co-exist in a relatively-small enclosed space. Since there is no field accounts of how red-tails and ball pythons interact with each other in the wild (obviously, since they're found in different continents), our only observations are in captive environments. And with very few exceptions, the results are not good.

If we were talking about keeping a cornsnake and a grey rat snake in the same enclosure, the situation may not be as dire. But again, we're talking about mixing a large neo-tropical arboreal constrictor with a small/medium savannah/grassland constrictor. Can they be kept together? Sure. Should they? No.

yes you are exactly right, in captivity you take away their choices, in the wild they can bugger off when ever they want.

I actually agree with almost all of what you have said, I just wanted to debate it, out of interest

[StudentoReptile]

Originally Posted by bladeblaster

yes you are exactly right, in captivity you take away their choices, in the wild they can bugger off when ever they want.

Indeed. And you have to remember that I spent 10+ yrs dealing with idiots in pet stores. Anytime I came across someone keeping two different species of snake together, it was ALWAYS because: they didn't have a second cage t separate them. And the reasons were always: don't have enough money, don't enough space, it's just easier for me, etc. I NEVER encountered anyone who said "Hey, I wanna keep a ___ with a ____. What would be the best way to accomplish this and not compromise the health of the animals?"

I actually agree with almost all of what you have said, I just wanted to debate it, out of interest

I'm used to it. And if you haven't noticed, I sometimes like to argue for the heck of it anyway, too.

But I hope you see what I was saying with the whole opinion vs fact thing. Kinda like I was alluding to in that other thread, it is your opinion that ball pythons are boring. But it is a fact that 90% of the time, you never see your snake active and crawling around outside of its hide. So your opinion is based on factual evidence, no?

[bladeblaster]

Originally Posted by StudentoReptile

But I hope you see what I was saying with the whole opinion vs fact thing. Kinda like I was alluding to in that other thread, it is your opinion that ball pythons are boring. But it is a fact that 90% of the time, you never see your snake active and crawling around outside of its hide. So your opinion is based on factual evidence, no?

I know, just pushing some buttons

There are very few 'facts' when it comes to reptiles because there has been nowhere near enough study done on their behaviour to present anything as fact.

I was just playing

You are also right 99% of people who ask about co-habiting are wanting to do it for all the wrong reasons

[emmabee]

interesting debate!

Originally Posted by uma_and_bill

Yes but how am I supposed to know what us advice and what is sales talk, there's just no way to do this except to listen to people like you who are in it for the love of and to substantiate as much as I can by having answers from a community x

to add to this topic there are some cracking shops around the sheffield/derbyshire area with great knowledge but you cant expect the owner/workers to have a total knowledge of every species they sell, finding a place who have a good broad knowledge is hard but they are around!

its always useful to know who to ask about a particuar species and the foums provide a good base for this, but you need to use your own judgement and listen to what your animals are telling you too, after all they are the ones who know if your doing it right for them!

[StudentoReptile]

Originally Posted by emmabee

interesting debate!

to add to this topic there are some cracking shops around the sheffield/derbyshire area with great knowledge but you cant expect the owner/workers to have a total knowledge of every species they sell, finding a place who have a good broad knowledge is hard but they are around!

its always useful to know who to ask about a particuar species and the foums provide a good base for this, but you need to use your own judgement and listen to what your animals are telling you too, after all they are the ones who know if your doing it right for them!

Ditto! The key is NOT to rely on a singular source of information. If you read or hear something from a pet store clerk, go follow-up on it with some homework. If the information you get from online forums, books, magazine articles, and/or just talking with experienced herpers who have worked with that species firsthand is conflicting with what the pet store guy says...you have your answer.

Of course, you have to evaluate experience, as well as the numbers game. For example, I may take heed the advice of one person I know has had the experience with said species over the advice of 3 people I know have had no experience with that species, you know?