Cassie eating a fuzzy.

[infernalis]

Originally Posted by mo9e64

I guess i should have worded it differently,if you could do something easier with the same end result would you do it?

yes and no.

when a half dozen scientists tell me to offer a varied diet, and one blowhard who don't keep Savs says mice is all they need, I don't need a PHD to make the obvious choice.

[mo9e64]

They tell you,do they and you accept that without them substantiating it-you know what opinion is,right.For them to be right,the opposite must be shown to be untrue.Backup it up-statements of scientists saying variety is important isn't proof,just like scientists who say there is not climate change-you need data.Data where both methods are used.

[infernalis]

Whatever Moe..

So Daniel does not keep Lizards.

All the rest do.

Franks data is mired in lies, I have caught him and proved it, others have caught him and proved it..

Remember when I proved he was a liar on kingsnake, his minions fell silent quickly.

Just exactly how many BBC, PBS or animal planet documentaries have "FR" in the closing credits??

I will take my chances with my current mentors thanks.

[mo9e64]

You make pretty good argument,all it's missing is the data part.This is an example of data Greg had a Sav live the first 5-6 years on just rodents,it lived 16 years.Wayne had a monitor that lived 5 years with variety.Maybe for some it's more than about variety,unless you've just no matter what decided despite reality it is about variety.Does Greg have a tv show,if not i guess what he says isn't relevant-give me a break

[jarich]

Wow, didnt expect to see this thread after being gone just a couple days.

For all our talk of 'improved' diets or varied diets, what we are actually doing is trying to compensate for the fact that we produce poor quality feeders for our animals and so variety helps alleviate that issue. Look at what those experts quoted here are actually saying. They are saying that they do not believe that a normal keeper can provide the energy and nutrition necessary for a growing varanid on bugs alone. Therefore they recommend rodents. It is important to read between the lines in that case. They are not saying that it cannot be done, it just isnt likely that most keepers will.

Obviously it can be, as savannah's do not get rodents in the wild regularly while they are growing. Im not going to argue about whether or not they could take them in the wild or whatever. All Im saying is that they grow plentifully, and apparently without rodents, in the wild. So saying they need them in captivity is saying that we see a need to change what we know about their feeding habits. The obvious question then is why? The answer here seems to be because either we cannot find the variety necessary for a healthy animal, or because we do not think we can feed them enough inverts for a healthy animal. Either one seems an unusual argument.

They dont appear to eat a huge amount of variety in the wild, according to Daniel. He said most animals stomach contents had from 4-8 different species of inverts in them. Thats seems like a pretty easy number to reach on a regular basis. Roaches, crickets, earthworms, snails, and crayfish/shrimp are all pretty simple to both find and raise. Obviously it is harder in Canada where there are specific laws, but not that difficult as many members here have shown. The important part of feeding those animals, as always, is how they are raised though. If raised properly, and fed properly, I see no reason to need any further variety. Again, the key here is the proper feeding of those inverts to make them as nutritious as possible.

The other argument, that they cannot be fed enough inverts, also seems like a strange argument to me. They are eating machines, and its good to keep them active by constantly feeding. Throwing a bunch of bugs in the enclosure not only helps the environment they are in biologically, but also creates an environment where the monitor is constantly searching for food. Those experts that are breeders are usually keeping a high number of monitors, so perhaps having enough inverts for so many is almost impossible. For one or two, I dont see how it is so impractical. I have to supplement from a pet store occasionally, but the inverts breed pretty quickly, so feeding a lot isnt a problem.

The other issue I have with that argument is that it is based on caloric intake alone. If you arent feeding your monitor enough calories, thats the issue, not the prey type you are feeding it. If your savannah perked up right away and has been more active after feeding fuzzies, then its a sign you werent feeding it enough in the first place. It also skips over what we know of other facets of nutritional analysis besides straight caloric intake.

I dont think any present expert is recommending a rodent only diet for savannah monitors throughout their life. I hope not, as it would be outdated and irresponsible in my opinion. Whatever analogy you want to make will have shortcomings, but the fact is that rodents are high in saturated fats, and have a reduced essential fatty acid profile in captivity. Savannahs do not appear to be adapted to high saturated fat diets. Do I think that a fuzzy or two a week is problematic? No, I dont. However, I am of the opinion that the high levels of saturated fats in rodents can be problematic for adult savannahs if fed too often. I also feel that the high levels of certain essential fatty acids in inverts are key to their longevity. From the survey that I am doing I do not have a single reported animal older than 15 that was raised on a rodent only diet as an adult. Every single animal that I know of that has reached that age was raised on either a mix of rodents and inverts or inverts only. The majority of those were raised on a mix of the two.

So I dont think that its such a big issue that Brady is feeding a fuzzy or two once a week. I do think that feeding rodents more often than that could possibly lead to issues later in life. I think that anyone stating that adult savannah's be fed a rodent only diet needs to start doing more research on nutrition and not just looking at metabolism. Just my opinion though.

[Gregg M]

The thing that people seem to be skipping over is that an all rodent diet is not bad on its own. Mix an all rodent diet with insufficient temperatures and inadequate caging, then you may have a problem.

Personally, I do not believe in an all rodent diet for varanids. I also do not believe in an all invert diet. For our larger varanids, the diet is somewhere aound 60/40 invert to rodents. The smaller odatria get way more insects compared to rodents. I would say 90/10 inverts to rodents.

Personally, I think anyone who goes to the extreme on either end of this argument is doing their animal an injustice.

From my personal experience, fedding a sav rodents even 3 times a week will do no harm at all.

[infernalis]

Originally Posted by mo9e64

You make pretty good argument,all it's missing is the data part.This is an example of data Greg had a Sav live the first 5-6 years on just rodents,it lived 16 years.Wayne had a monitor that lived 5 years with variety.Maybe for some it's more than about variety,unless you've just no matter what decided despite reality it is about variety.Does Greg have a tv show,if not i guess what he says isn't relevant-give me a break

The main difference, Greg has never been caught telling lies.

Honesty equals integrity.

You are the one missing the point here, you are attmpting to say that a known (and well documented) liar has something more important to say than a whole pack of well established scientists.

I will always maintain what I have said, if I was told by your holieness that it was raining out, I would have to look out the window, go outside and make sure he was not using a garden hose AND call the weather channel before I would consider believing it.

[jaleely]

Originally Posted by KORBIN5895

...Secondly I couldn't care less what you feed your sav but don't come on here complaining about the lack of variety when you obviously haven't been trying to hard. If you want to feed rodents fine, just man up and say that. Instead you are making excuses about availability and cost of the alternative diet.
Please don't tell us that you can't get anymore dubia roaches when you were able to get a colony less than two months ago. You need to convert some of hour passion into action.

I'll be honest, brady you seem nice, but your posts are a bit inconsistent, so i do have to agree here. Oh and i know i do the same thing sometimes, but let's be realistic. For the care of this animal, you are saying you cannot afford, and will not provide the proper insect variety....and here is where i also agree with Jarich when he says "For all our talk of 'improved' diets or varied diets, what we are actually doing is trying to compensate for the fact that we produce poor quality feeders for our animals and so variety helps alleviate that issue. Look at what those experts quoted here are actually saying. They are saying that they do not believe that a normal keeper can provide the energy and nutrition necessary for a growing varanid on bugs alone. Therefore they recommend rodents. It is important to read between the lines in that case. They are not saying that it cannot be done, it just isnt likely that most keepers will. "

(btw Jarich you are always so perfect and right on with your summaries and statements!)

So, you realize you can't give her the proper diet...so you introduce rodents. Fine, but stick to what you said you'd do, and only do it sparingly. I think it's not going to hurt a lizard if used *Sparingly*... optimal is if you could feed insects all the time. Well, you can't, so there we go. Just don't go crazy about it. I was disappointed to see that you gave her more so soon and so many.

Don't get the pets if you can't pay the vets, and don't keep them or get more if you can't house or feed the ones you have. It was a big check for me, who wanted to get all righteous and go out and save a bunch of snakes from the pound, but i knew i wouldn't be able to give as healthy of an environment or care for the ones i have if i did that and spread myself thin. Sometimes even one animal can spread you thin, if they require a lot of care.
My point is, now that you know how much you need to take care of her in regards to nutrition, stimulation, heat, humidity, housing (which you are working on) etc...
i would just try a little bit harder to find a more appropriate food source and rely less on the "junk food" method, just because it's easier and cheaper.

Please don't feed her tuns of rodents. More than one a week would be tons for her animal type. I see a lot of pics of savannas and many of them look *really* fat. lol
Don't let her go down that path!
Try again with alternate bug sources of food. I know gardens are often swarmed with snails. There is probably a way to attract them to your area and collect them.

[KORBIN5895]

Slugs really like beer.

[infernalis]

Originally Posted by jaleely

Please don't feed her tuns of rodents. More than one a week would be tons for her animal type. I see a lot of pics of savannas and many of them look *really* fat. lol
.

This is mostly because they are not kept hot enough.

My lizards digest so fast they are hungry twice a day anymore.

Lack of free space to move + low temps equals fat lizard, on ANY diet.

[exwizard]

I am amazed at how this thread started by a kid wanting to know the best way to take care of his Sav in the simplest of terms turned into a scientific debate. With all the conflicting info on this thread, any thought of me ever getting a monitor of any kind was quickly vanquished. I will not ever get a monitor of any kind. The opinions out there on their care and husbandry are too confusing and conflicting for my liking. I admire those who are successful in keeping monitors but I realize that its not for me.

[infernalis]

Originally Posted by exwizard

I am amazed at how this thread started by a kid wanting to know the best way to take care of his Sav in the simplest of terms turned into a scientific debate. With all the conflicting info on this thread, any thought of me ever getting a monitor of any kind was quickly vanquished. I will not ever get a monitor of any kind. The opinions out there on their care and husbandry are too confusing and conflicting for my liking. I admire those who are successful in keeping monitors but I realize that its not for me.

The mouse/no mouse debate infects all forums.

I have seen it for too long, all over the net.

It's sad really.

[exwizard]

yeah I can see that

[Gregg M]

Originally Posted by exwizard

The opinions out there on their care and husbandry are too confusing and conflicting for my liking. I admire those who are successful in keeping monitors but I realize that its not for me.

The thing is, they are very easy to care for as long as you provide them with what they need.

Part of keeping them is to come to your own conclusions on what they need based on SUCESSFUL keepers info. People who have kept them and bred them for years are the sources you want to take info from.

I am not saying that you should only listen to one person. You should listen to all information given and come up with your own formula. The fact of the matter is, none of us, no matter how successful, have monitor husbandry completely dialed in. We have all lost animals in our care, we have all made mistakes, and we have all failed in some way. It is part of keeping and it is vital in order to better our husbandry. Fortunately, for those not experienced in monitor keeping, there are forums like this.

My advice to you is not to follow information that is too extreme on either side of an argument. For instance, this thread is about feeding rodents. The huge majority of successful keepers and breeders fall in the middle. A varied diet of rodents and inverts seem to work best. Too far over to either side of the argument, you can be doing more harm than good and the only one who will suffer is your varanid. The rest of their husbandry requirements are pretty well agreed on.

You should never be put off by conflicting information. Common sense will take you very far in monitor keeping.

[jaleely]

all the debate about monitors has saved my husband and i a lot of heartache. he totally wanted one, and i was indifferent (absorbed in snakes lol) but i read to him all the time what's on here, and we realized we weren't set up or prepared to house and feed one responsibly. we will probably get one, one day, but until then i'm going to try to focus on taking care of all the critters i have...and waiting until i have a huge roach colony ready for any other insectivores. : ) My pyxie frog is getting HUGE and i realized quickly i'd need more food for him. Maybe when i have a nice culmination of them, PLUS an appropriate housing arrangement, then i can look into a monitor. i completely admit i would have just one with the standard wrong enclosure and wrong feeding for one, if i'd gotten it in the beginning. and anything else would not have worked for our house, so i would have had to give it up.
Anyway, it's a spot of contention but it made me aware of things i needed to be aware of.
I just want brady to be consistent and not get trapped up in what is easier for him, rather than best for the pet. I know he loves his girl though so he's working on all fronts to make her have the best environment. I want to encourage that...(so good job, dude!