A Silly Frog Question

[Shane Tesser]

Okay, its probably going to sound either very silly...or like a question you have heard a million times before. I am VERY interested in getting into Darts...everytime i see Mark Peppers stuff i drool! I am planning on building a very large half glass half wood enclosure/cabinet. I plan on minimal 200 gallons for the tank. My question is...i want to use a very high enclosure, and my concern is the use of space in all areas of it.....SO!!! Is there any other create that could get along with Darts, say chams, or other lizards..toads? Any advice would be great!!! Thanks, Shane

[Dom]

I may be speaking out of my a$ on this one but dart frogs are higly poisonous .. not as much in captivity as in the wild but they are still a fair amount in captivity .. Id be worried of haing an other animals try to eat her or touch em or lick m or anything lik e that ..

I think its better to keep em seperatly but then again my amphibian knoledge is very limited..

Best of luck there Shaney boy..

Dom

[Shane Tesser]

Dom..what you talk out of your @ss...NO WAY!!! Lmao...yeah that is also one of the things that i was thinking..thanks for that Dom..i almost forgot, but ive read somewhere that the poison is either non-exhistant..or really weak probably due to a dietary problem in captivity...i guess that kinda makes a second question to all of you doesnt it!

[Greg West]

As far as I know they are not poisonous in captivity. I am not sure what makes them toxic, be it food, or environment, but they are not poisonous in captivity. That being said, I am not sure that you can put anything with them due to their size. I would not recommend putting anything with the frogs due to stress or one or the other getting eaten.

Hope that helped, but Mark Pepper would probably be of more help. I am wanting to do the same thing as you Shane. I just have to come up with the money to afford to set up another extravagant cage, but I was also thinking of putting red eyed tree frogs in there as opposed to the dart frogs to avoid having to feed really small crickets.

Greg

[asphyxia]

I like beer with darts

B

I think the dart frogs are poisonous, from eating poisonous food...
ants I think

[Dom]

All frogs are poisonous to a certain extend wether be in captivity or wild.. Poisson dart frogs get it from eating fire ants in the wild..

I beleive dart frogs to be somewhat dangerous in captivity .. i mean sure u can touch em but I doubt u could lick em without getting sick or eat them with out being criticly ill..

Just my thoughts

Dom

[DragnDrop]

Poison darts make their toxins from the food they eat. CB darts are safe, though there's some rumour about Terribilis being able to make a mild toxin in captivity. I've got tinctorius, auratus and vittatus, all of which I've handled when necessary. There's no way I'd lick any of them, but if need be to prove to city council that they're not dangerous I probably would - and then wash the frog off for it's safety.

The only animals I've heard of living safely with darts are small daygeckos - gold dust usually. I still wouldn't do that, since they are from different geographic regions. I suppose if the tank is big enough, it might work, even with an aggressive gold dust.
Why not stick to different species of darts, (not colour morph of the same species), they won't interbreed, and you can find some to fill all areas of the tank.

[Mark Pepper]

Hi Shane,

Dragon Drop, Greg were all correct in saying that they are completely harmless on captivity, even terribilis. There are rumours that terribilis can make some toxins while in captivity, but this has yet to be proven, and its yet to be proven conclusively what it is that makes them toxic in the wild, though the generally excepted theory is diet. (this is the theory I buy in to)
Remember that even in the wild only three species are toxic enough to have any advers affect on humans, those being, phyllobates aurotaenia, bicolor, and of course terribillis. I have handled many captive terribilis, and hundreds of other darts frogs, both in captivity, and in the wild, as well as many wild caught frogs that have come in (never any of the wild pyllobates mentioned above, that certainly would not be a good idea That being said I took precaution not to wipe my hands in my eyes...Infact the only kind of reaction I have ever experienced was a minor burning sensaton from a golden mantella.
My main concern would be the other animals harming the dart frogs, rather than vice versa. I know the the national aquarium in baltimore has many large vivariums with dart frogs coexisting happily with other herps, some small tropical geckoes, and anole-ish lizards, as well as with emeald tree boas.
Though I have no exprience doing so, and its probably something I wouldnt do, or reccomend It can be done, with enough space and attention that all the requirements for each species can be met adequately.

good luck with your vivarium, sounds like it will be amazing, I look forward to seeing some pics

[Dom]

Interesting you bring up the Baltimore aquarium displays.. I now remember them and saw exacly what u mentionned.. I beleive they have one of the worlds largest collection of dendrobates.. Is this possible .. not sure though..

Anywho ..

Dom

[Laurier]

from what I heard baltimore does have the largest collection of dendrobates, alive and dead in jars (just a rumor). But shane, when I was in costa rica at the san jose zoo, they had a few sets up that houses other species of herps with the frogs. they had turtles, geckos, a tree boa, and some eye lash pit vipers as well. I don't know if the snakes eat the frogs or other reptiles but it was interesting seeing this. I also watched pumilio lay there eggs and finally got to see one of my favorite poison frogs, dendrobates granuliferous.

well personally I like to keep my tanks strickly for poison frogs, buts it is possiable to mix.

Laurier

[Shane Tesser]

Thanks for the advice everyone, i really appreciate it. I was doing research like mad and i found a couple of sites where ppl kept them with fire belly newts. I though that was pretty interesting, and they also had fire belly toads in the same tank. Maybe ill just go nuts and buy several types of darts as suggested....or as many as i can safely house. Again, thank you, Shane

[Dilshad]

Mark's got about everything covered...I've got a very little bit to add: I was inquiring after the NAIB exhibits a while back, and apparently, they do lose animals from time to time in their multi-species set-ups, and subsequently replace them.

Personally I just wouldn't mix species, although I have considered mixing darts (ones that won't hybridize) from time to time, but never gone through with it. With enough space, particularly with a higher tank, I think you could mix D. imitator and something bigger and more terrestrial like a D. tinctorius...I remember tossing that idea around with Mark a while back, maybe he has more to say on the subject.

[Canadaherp]

well shane i'd reccomend something , use large pieces of owod and vines nad mosses ot make areas on all levels, then maybe waterfalls and some high rocks, hope it works

[Mark Pepper]

Hey Dilshad,

I have mixed successfully imitator and azureus, and vents and azureus. Mixing the arboreal thumbnails with the larger terrestrial species seems to work ok if both are cb, and enough food is available. This is the only mixing I usually endorse, of course with this mix you cant really have locality specific tanks...I ve been wanting to mix some blue jean pumilio with auratus for some time, but there is never enough pumilio...

[Mark Pepper]

I just realized that I always respond to these things like emails, the last post was intended for evryone obviosly, not just Dilshad.......it was a long day at the show today....