Breeding vs Morals and Ethics

[MoreliAddict]

Originally Posted by jaleely

Evolution is natural selection. Humans interfering is just selection.

I just disagree with creating purposely unhealthy, or weak genetic animals strictly because you like their color or pattern.
I didn't vote.

Selecting a breeding pair with attention to which colors look best (even when pure breeding a real species) cannot be considered natural selection either

[UwabamiReptiles]

Originally Posted by exwizard

Ive done some thinking about this for a while. I am in agreement with Shaun on this one. I have no problems with hybrids as long as there are no resulting health issues and the breeder is forthright and upfront in explaining to the prospective buyer that it is a hybrid.

I agree with shaun and wiz. As long as no health issues and the breeder is straigtht forward about what the animal is, then I don't have a problem with hybrids.

[hellosugaree]

Originally Posted by Gregg M

You can not be a purist and keep wild animals in your home. If you truely want to be purist, leave the animals in their natural habitat, not in one created by you. Pretty simple.

This is captivity girls and boys. We play god because in this instance, we are god/nature. We pick what food items to feed, we provide their water, we are in control of their heat, we pick who breeds with who, and we incubate their eggs and care for the offspring. Nothing natural about any of that.

Exactly. Amen.

[cenecker]

Who wants my .02!?

For me its simple. I've honestly never been a fan hybrids, albinos, morphs, mixed localities, etc. I know most of the herptoculture world disagrees with me (and I don't begrudge them that!) but I think albinos and morphs are all creepy and ugly! I just prefer the way nature makes everything. That's my taste and what "seems right" to me.

My moral stance...not sure really. We've raised many good points here. Keeping animals in boxes instead of the wild is already playing god. Where do you draw the line?

Great Thread!

[cenecker]

whoops! I didn't really answer the question did I?

For me it's a moral question. But then I believe fanatically in personal freedom and personal accountability (you can't one without the other!). So I'd say it's YOUR personal choice what you're comfortable with.

[red ink]

Originally Posted by Gregg M

Anyway, poducing hybrid reptiles in a captive setting is not a moral or ethical issue. What are ethics and morals anyway? They are codes made by people for people to do business by and to live by. If you break it down they are just opinions as well. Opinions of the majority. Seems like this topic is split down the middle with an entire group of people who can care less either way.

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You can not be a purist and keep wild animals in your home. If you truely want to be purist, leave the animals in their natural habitat, not in one created by you. Pretty simple.

Just like the ambiguous definition of ethics the definition of purist can be the same... I consider myself a purist in the sense that I don't keep hybrids or intergrades and only keep locality pure animals.

[Gregg M]

Originally Posted by red ink

Just like the ambiguous definition of ethics the definition of purist can be the same... I consider myself a purist in the sense that I don't keep hybrids or intergrades and only keep locality pure animals.

What species/subspecies do you keep? And how can you be sure they are pure/locality spacific? Just a question. Not trying to be an ***.

[red ink]

Originally Posted by Gregg M

What species/subspecies do you keep? And how can you be sure they are pure/locality spacific? Just a question. Not trying to be an ***.

Morelia spilota cheynei Tully locale and Atherton locale

Antaresia stimsoni stimsoni Windorah locale

Antaresia maculosa Mt Malloy locale

All purchased from breeders who are keeping locale specific animals

[millertime89]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

Nothing to do with morphs. You're screwing with the original genetics of the parents at this point. North America hasn't had any important carpet pythons from Australia in forever, we no longer have a gene pool for them, it's a gene puddle. I really would have a hard time believing any carpet is "pure" at this point.

I was thinking more of crossing morphs into other localities/species. Some boa genetics, the jag gene in carpets being crossed into other localities and bredli's, just to name a few.
Although I do understand what you're getting at with the puddle/pool re: blood purity.

[millertime89]

Originally Posted by cenecker

Who wants my .02!?

For me its simple. I've honestly never been a fan hybrids, albinos, morphs, mixed localities, etc. I know most of the herptoculture world disagrees with me (and I don't begrudge them that!) but I think albinos and morphs are all creepy and ugly! I just prefer the way nature makes everything. That's my taste and what "seems right" to me.

My moral stance...not sure really. We've raised many good points here. Keeping animals in boxes instead of the wild is already playing god. Where do you draw the line?

Great Thread!

You do realize that albinos and other morphs are nature created too right?
Human morphs: blue eyes, blonde/red hair, blood type, ear lobe shape, butt chin (not sure the actual name for this) fingerprint shape, widow's peak, the whorle (sp?), granted we don't breed for these traits (most of us don't anyways) but if you've got blue eyes, technically you're a freak (I'm one, yay!). That's also not a bad thing.

I still need to respond to those other posts...

[millertime89]

Originally Posted by JustBitten

This is a tough one and my answer is different depending on the circumstances. If you are dealing with an animal that is rare both in the wild and captivity, they should never be messed with other than to do what we can to bring their (as pure as possible without too much in-breeding) numbers up. I think we have an obligation to protect the original animal.

Where the animal is very common, there is more latitude IMO. Intergrades of certain species make more sense to me, as some are very similar to begin with, or would likely happen in the wild anyway. Generally, if they are common in captivity and as long as they are identified as intergrades, I don't see a problem.

Hybrids can be beautiful, but what is the end game plan for making them, assuming they are sterile? Just 'cause? Again comes back to their rarity and the genetic cost associated to "wasting" that opportunity to make more of something at risk.

My biggest objection is the perpetuation of health problems. This is a personal opinion and I am absolutely not taking a shot at others who feel differently, but for example, I don't think spider Royals should be bred until we know more about their neuro issues. I have a long history breeding rabbits for show (as a kid), being around the dog breeding world, and breeding horses as a teen. A neurological issue like that would end a line in most cases.

However, I don't understand why the snake world has determinedly continued to breed an animal with a known problem. I do understand that we have not been able to identify that they are in pain and they do function to varying degrees, but when I see a bad example of the wobble, it makes me nauseous and I have to ask myself why we're doing this to them. Just because we love their combos? I would personally need a better reason than that to breed a spider even though I love how they look.

Acting responsibly, ethically, and morally can be an awkward, uncomfortable and difficult thing, no doubt.

Some of these animals are rare in the wild but relatively common in captivity so hybrids are indeed "just cause" and to see what they look like.
They look great and appearance is what sells snakes.

Originally Posted by FangsAnarchy

Now we have a problem. Everything although distantly is related. We could inbreed which could cause health problems since genes work in pairs and the animal is more likely to inherit the defected gene. There are no more corn snakes. You had the last 100. Should you inbreed and risk passing on sickness and deformity or should you bring in some fresh genes from a closely related species? Personally I am strongly against inbreeding and would rather see the hybrid. Just my thoughts, sorry to offend.

I can't comment on what the scientific community would think about this, however your point about inbreeding and what happens when bad genes are brought out is interesting. Ideally the least fit animals are either going to die or be killed off so natural selection ultimately should prevent these genes from surviving. There are some exceptions to this, but that's generally what happens.

Also if an animal has such low numbers in the wild and isn't a result of human interference then it clearly isn't meant to survive. Animals fight to fill niches in the wild and when they're forced out by something that fills the niche better that's also natural selection. There's no place in the wild for an animal that doesn't have a place. How many animals went extinct simply because of this?

Originally Posted by Caylan

Did the females not realise those horns gotta come outta them sometime.....

Personally I don't feel hybridising snakes has anything to do with morals or ethics, its all personal choice, just like everything else you do. No need for fancy words or descriptions, its what you do afterwards that requires the morals and ehtics. Responsibility is key.

good point, but there are some very unscrupulous people out there that are gonna misrepresent the snakes as things they're not and as a result you get the situation we see with carpets. I think integrades are more dangerous in this aspect then hybrids because hybrids are distinctly different and easily noticeable, however some integrades are too, just not as easy to tell apart.

Originally Posted by red ink

not to play "pokemon" and see what I can create, but that's my preference. Each to their own on this one, it does not mean I can't appreciate a snake for it's beauty what ever is in the mix.

4 What do you do with the rejects from playing "pokemon"... euth, give away for free, misrepresent them to the buyer, feed to my varanid or BHP?

love the reference...
and yes, euth and feed to an animal that eats snakes, they gotta eat too, how else are you gonna feed them?

[Freebody]

i dont think its either option as well. but ethics seems to be the closest, as i thinks people pick a side of the fense based on what others say how much they dont like it, hense the snow ball effect. I think their is nothing wrong with this, if science didnt agree, then it would not be possible as far as im concened. you CANT breed boes to pythons, so if you went in a lab and made a so called frankenstien snake, then yess i would say thats gone a little too far, but if just putting to compatible species together and getting snakes out of it, whats the big deal. ex, i like all women, black white yeallow, hell if i a chick was green and i liked her, i would give a **** less what anyone thought, and in this day and age everyone seems to see things the same way, or at least racism does not exsist here, thank god! but just a short 100 years ago, people were so narrow minded, they thought each color should be sperate.......same with snakes as far as im concered, a few years from now when more and more people have had success doing this cross breeding, the less uncomon and taboo it will be, i think imho. AS LONG as said snakes are repreisented as what the truly are, Highbreads. and not some **** mix of a snake labeled as a pure what ever.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by millertime89

I was thinking more of crossing morphs into other localities/species. Some boa genetics, the jag gene in carpets being crossed into other localities and bredli's, just to name a few.
Although I do understand what you're getting at with the puddle/pool re: blood purity.

I get what you're saying and I have to agree. It muddles things up even more, especially with the likes of carpets in North America.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by Freebody

...AS LONG as said snakes are repreisented as what the truly are, Highbreads. and not some **** mix of a snake labeled as a pure what ever.

That therein lies the issue. A lot of hybrids just look like a new morph of one parent or the other and lies are always given to what they really are or the babies are bred back to pure strains of one parent line and sold as pure.

Back a number of years people were breeding diamond carpet pythons to jungle carpets and claiming they were pure diamonds because they sold for like $1,000 bucks a pop.

[jaleely]

why do people get so worked up if "their" threads get off topic? good lord if you don't want discussion don't post in public.

i hope that pissy tirade was a joke.

Actually i don't care either way. I'll just talk about elk and snakes as i please.
I tend to agree with korbin, i think it was, on the shedding of antlers and the males mating and all that.

I already said my opinion on snakes. Which i guess moreliaddict was agreeing with..? Since we said basically the same thing.

Hmm anyway my favorite pudding is vanilla. Why do you think that is, when i am strictly a chocolate person when it comes to say, chocolate? I like vanilla cake though. My favorite is white cake with whipped cream frosting.
You?