Burmballs, Bateaters, Wall's, etc., etc....

[Will0W783]

While in theory you are correct Dwarfism it exists but in order to get Super Dwarfism it is Hybridization...so only part of your statement is true and factual. Island Dwarfism is phenomenon but the "Super" part comes from humans

Actually, Super Dwarf retics are a natural occurrence. They originated from the Kayuadi Islands near Indonesia. These islands have been isolated from the mainland for thousands of years, and the retics trapped on the islands have had to make do with smaller prey items and the need for more climbing to get tree-bound prey. Therefore, natural selection favored smaller animals who could survive on the smaller food, and over time, the retics became smaller and smaller. So Super Dwarfs are NOT a hybrid or a man-made creation. They just represent a locality, much like Jungle carpets vs. Coastal carpets.

I am on the fence about actual hybrids. I think some of them are really neat and beautiful; however, they need to be carefully regulated and labeled as hybrids, or we run the risk of muddying up genetic pools and losing the original pure parent species. Hybrids should have to be microchipped and registered so that there procreation can be controlled. They wont' go away- people will always push the boundaries of what they can create with directed captive breeding, but it places a heavy burden on us herpers to be responsible about breeding and keep the pure bloodlines going as well.

[youngster]

How is super dwarfism hybridization?
You don't cross two species to get them

edit: whoops, didn't see Kim's post

[Necrias]

Originally Posted by CDN_Blood

It's no secret that I think hybrids are the result of keepers with a total lack of ethics who are only out to tickle their own fancy or fill their pockets with ill-begotten cash.

I use the word Frankenstein to describe hybrids also - horrible monsters made from different pieces that don't naturally fit together and result in a creature that never should have been.

For the record, not everyone does accept these things - I don't, and I don't travel in circles that do accept such ideas. If someone I call a friend was to create a hybrid, they'd go straight to the Black List and be permanently ostracized; no question about that, no hesitation, no exceptions.

I've been around the block more times than I care to think about and I've seen this hobby change so radically in that time that my opinions have become really harsh and dogmatic, but even though I'm so adamant about stuff like this, I'm still glad there are people like myself out there. I just hope I'm not the last of my kind, lol.

Addendum: I should clarify that I'm strictly talking about hybrids and not intergrades. While I'm not totally on board with intergrades either, it's the hybrids that I'm dead-set against.

Could you explain a bit more WHY you are so dead-set against hybrids? Generally speaking, the only health problem hybrids have to deal with is infertility, which I don't see as a huge negative in the grand scheme of things. If they were more prone to health issues I would completely agree with you, but I just don't see it. If anything, breeding jag carpets is more "unethical" than hybrids, considering the neurological issues present in some offspring.

That being said, I think carpondros are some of the most beautiful snakes on the planet, and am thinking about getting a GTP so that I may breed my own (too cheap to buy one!). Also, my girlfriend would love a burmball or a blood/superball, and I don't see us as particularly unethical.

[millertime89]

I'm going to post on the original post then come back to the rest of the posts later.
MOST hybrids would never occur naturally, that said, bateaters and carpondros have the potential to happen as the individual species do share some of the same geographic areas. A burmball as 0 chance of happening in the wild unless it happens in Florida as a result of the invasive population. That said the likelihood of hybrids happening in the wild is so low because these species inherently search out their own species for procreation. In addition even if the two species do breed in the wild, the likelihood of any of the eggs actually hatching is very low. Conditions have to be perfect in captivity for the hybrids to grow big enough and healthy enough to hatch.
Dwarfism (and super) are all specific subspecies, even if they're not universally accepted as such. The Kayuadi and Jampea locality retics are classified as Python reticulatus japeanus and dwarf burms are python bivittatus progschai (there is debate that the burm should no longer be considered a subspecies of python molurus and should be classified as its own separate species)

[millertime89]

Originally Posted by BurmeseGuy

While in theory you are correct Dwarfism it exists but in order to get Super Dwarfism it is Hybridization...so only part of your statement is true and factual. Island Dwarfism is phenomenon but the "Super" part comes from humans

No, the Kayaudi locality retic naturally does not grow past 8 feet, usually 6. There is talk that they need to be a different subspecies from the Jamp retic because Jamps typically hit 12ish feet.

[Xanafein]

Interstingly im curious on how you draw the line for hybrids,

with the Reclasification of green trees from Chondro to Morelia Virdis im curious to see why people call carpondros a hybrid, because by that logic any carpet with bredl DNA is also a hybrid yet ive seen most people refer to those as an intergrade

That aside
i have no problem with breeding hybrids keeping hybrids or anything else

[millertime89]

While I agree with the sentiment that muddying the waters is to be frowned upon, it should be noted that very few of the true hybrids have made it past 75% to one side or another, and I say very few because I honestly don't know if one has. I would in fact argue that integrades are more damaging to the hobby than actual hybrids because hybrids are so visually stunning that there is no way anyone that knows what they are will mistake them to be anything BUT a hybrid.

Todd I'm sorry you feel the way you do, I guess we can't be friends because I do plan on making hybrids in the future. That said I will only be selling/giving the to people I know and trust to not breed them again. Just like I will not sell any pureblood (lol HP reference) animals to anyone that I don't think will be able to properly care for it.

[smittyd16]

For me its like breeding dogs! When I was a kid I had a half Queensland heeler, half coyote and it was the best dog ive ever had!

I find no problem in hybridization. Ive wanted a GTP to breed with my carpet since I saw my first carpondro!

As long as the hybrids are separated from people breeding pure and selling them as pure its fine. Hybrids are beautiful animals and shouldn't be called Frankenstein creations! They should be respected and viewed as their own "species" if you will.

[AaronRiot]

My two cents.

I don't like any of it. I hate that if I want a striking black and yellow jungle I have to be on a breeders *** about lineages ect. And THEN I have to make the decision as to whether or not I'm talking to an honest person, which can be as easily deceiving as a super-mocha-latte-het-vanilla-frappachino carpet. Oi. And if there is trouble now, let's look ten years down the road...

To me, these fancy-pants snakes are just a fashion statement. And a status statement. That goes for the morph fad, as well as the others. And a lack of appreciation for the natural beauty of the animal.

Sometimes I wonder what happens to the "normal" balls that don't sell bc no one wants them anymore, especially speaking towards the BIG breeders, not that I would know. And OT why do we degrade the real deal by calling them NORMAL it's like MEDIOCRE... Why not a word like Natural?

We people just can't leave a good thing alone.

/rant. Just my opinion of course to each their own.

On a side-note, I would love a Jamp at somepoint down the line... But will I risk it? Not likely. And that really sucks.

[jaleely]

I would own one....it's not the snakes fault...as in own like rescue or if it was given to me...probably wouldn't buy one, and would not breed one. I may not breed anything except my dumeri's boas, actually. The more i get into the hobby the more I get annoyed by how many people breed snakes for no reason other than making a "quick" buck (probably better off just saving the money they spent) or people who try to make that "one cool morph" to get a name for themselves.

I think there are a few people on here i've seen that i've had this discussion with before, whom I believe breed their snakes because they love the animals...and they know i fuss but i'm okay with them =P
I don't think it's needed to hybridize.

I'm still pissy i was sold a jungle/coastal carpet python as a coastal...when i didn't know any better. I was really confused trying to identify the snake, until i was able to meet the breeder again and got the explanation. And even then he didn't want to admit it, and tried to push it off as his wife didn't know any better...which is a total lie. She flat out told me it was a coastal carpet python.
ANYway...i love my little bitey brat, but that's what i think of when this is brought up!

[Caylan]

Not sure I want to get into this really, but hybrids I've alwasys liked, its like adding more python species to the world for me. However I don't disrespect and won't put down any one against hybrids, unlike how they usually feel about me. Whatever, not my place to tell you how to feel. But is it worth getting so upset about? I mean its more by circumstance if you ask me, not cut and dry like said above. Not all hybrid keepers and breeders are bad people, not sure why we are considered that. We're doing what we love just as you are. In the end, we're all a minority and looked down upon anyway, so I'm rather used to it, but to be put in a smaller group divided amongst people who seemingly like the same things I like, well then fine, I guess someday I'll just have to enjoy them by myself. Seriously hoep i don't lose any friends over it though. Caylan.S.

PS: ever seen an adult bredli head? They aren't carpet pythons in my opinion, as much a hybrid as carpondros. Not an integrade. Plus they are hard to diffrentiate from coastals when bred to a jag usually... I dunno. My stance on that, I have a bredli jag and a bredli jag sib, and I plan on selling the bredli jag and keeping the sib to pair with Sync later on. Then people will hate me...

[AaronRiot]

"PS: ever seen an adult bredli head? They aren't carpet pythons in my opinion, as much a hybrid as carpondros. Not an integrade. Plus they are hard to diffrentiate from coastals when bred to a jag usually... I dunno."

That's like saying a death adder isnt an elapid bc it doesn't look like an inland taipan....

[Caylan]

I'll admit I know next to nothing about venomous snakes, but would you call a death adder bred to an inland taipan an integrade or a hybird? Caylan.S.

[Caylan]

PS I'm still saying bredli are morelia, as much as a green tree python or scrub python(more scrub in my opinion really...) and not a carpet python aka morelia spilota spp, but morelia bredli instead. Its my take on it based on experience, nothing I say is actually fact lol. Just my argument for how bredli integrades should really be considered more like carpondros or moon pythons, as hybrids. They just are similar in size to a carpet python really... but if anyone really knew my whole take on taxonomy, they'd understand my opinions more I guess.

[millertime89]

I would like to apologize if I came across a bit harsh earlier, frustrating day. While I understand people's objections to hybrids, I think the attitude that some adopt in regards to them is unnecessary. Similar to people's attitudes towards big snakes or reptile owners in general.