My wife's first snake, Sidney

[jarich]

I couldnt really find any of the links that deal directly with the effects of cage dynamics online, unless you belong to the Wiley Online Library. There is an amazing book that has a few of them called The Health and Welfare of Captive Reptiles, which was edited by Warwick, Frye, and Murphy, and another called The UFAW Handbook on the Care and Management of Laboratory and Other Research Animals. Ill warn you though, they are both kind of ridiculously expensive unless you find a used copy.

As to Aaron's and Red Ink's comments about enclosure enrichment, they sound eerily close to what was said about chimps and other 'higher' animals about 50 years ago. Back then, nobody thought there was any reason to add enrichment to those animals cages either, because, hey, theyre just animals. After we got better at recognizing the signs of stress and anxiety in them though, we discovered that we do need to give them a rich environment for them to really thrive. Again, not to keep them alive, but to really make them thrive. And it only makes sense; if you put an animal from the wild into a barren plastic tub there is going to be some sort of detrimental effect on the brain. I think perhaps we are coming to that point in reptiles as well. Im not saying that a barren cage will make them crazy, just that a more enriched environment will lead to a healthier animal.

As to your comment about handling, Aaron, I am starting to agree, although this may indeed be a very species specific idea. Here are a couple articles I was reading the other day about it:

Effect of husbandry manipulations on respiratory rates in captive bearded dragons (Pogona vitticeps)
http://www.rogermeekherpetology.com/...tion%20HND.pdf

Physiological and behavioural effects of handling and restraint in the ball Python (Python regius) and the blue tongued skink (Tiliqua scincoides)
Elsevier

[red ink]

Jarich

There's a difference between communal higher functioning mammals and a sendentary ambush predator snake mate....

Take for example Liasis olivaceus borroni (pilbara olive pythons). There have been field studies on individual animals amongst the rock formations in the pilbara which have found the same animal living in the same crevace for upto 6 months without moving. They find periods of activities for a few weeks a year for mating and feeding, but always at a minimal range of the rock crevices itself. It gets hungry tags a rock wallaby goes to sleep for 4 months, wakes up feels a bit frisky looks for a mate for a few weeks; tags another rock wallaby goes back to sleep again till the next cycle. So anthropomorphicly itr can be said the that pilbara olive python's year consist of 4 days... the week its hungry as one, the few weeks it's frisky as another day, and the months in between at rest at a day each. How much environment enrichment do you think it would need in captivity given it's extreme sendentary lifestyle in it's natural environment.

By all means if people want to keep their snakes in grand enclosures do so...... but let's not slam the people that keep them in tubs either.

We feed our captive snakes on set interval with predetermined food sizes of our choice.... what happens if we feed it a prey item five times the size of it's "regular" prey item? Do you think it will stay active in it's grand enclosure or do you think it will retreat in it's hide for a few months while it digest and not use the "environment enrichment"?

[jarich]

My apologies, I was not in any way trying to slam anyone, Red Ink. I tried to mention in each of my posts that the first goal of any keeper is just to get to a point where the basic needs of the reptile are met, which can be done in tub or tank. Only beyond that was I trying to open up a theoretical discussion where we go past those basic needs and think about what would be the ideal situation for their habitat. So again, Im sorry if I made it seem like I was slamming you at all, that was not my intention.

As to your example, thats a pretty extreme one you chose! As you obviously know, the Pilbara comes from one of the most extreme environments on earth, with long droughts and sustained high temperatures. A difficult situation for any animal to live in. As a result, as Im sure you know, the Pilbara olive python aestivates to stay alive in those extremes periods, much like a bear. But when they are awake, there seem to be a number of studies done with radio transmitters that show these animals are pretty active. Some males will travel vast territories kilometers long to find a mate, and their favourite spot to lie in wait for prey is completely submerged in seasonal pools. So in answer to your question, yes I would think the ideal sort of habitat would be one that had both a rocky area with a couple hides and a large pool area for when they are out and hunting, rather than just a barren enclosure.

I should point out here again that I do think that these enriched environments can be created in both tub or tank. Ive seen some pretty amazing habitats for GTPs created in 45 gallon tubs, and Im sure we have all seen some awful set ups created in tanks. It just seems like with tubs its more about getting as many animals into as small an area as possible, rather than creating ideal habitats. And to me, that seems like the wrong direction to be going in.

[red ink]

Fair enough Jarich... now I understand where your comming from. It is quite interesting though to see if a definitive study has been done as to the habits of snakes in regards to movements in an environment where prey is easily accesible. There have also been accounts from people here of watching Morelias in roof eaves or buliding crevices stay in there for months. Prey was readily available from an ambush position within the "natural hide" itself and subsequently as a result the specimen would not leave it.

And yes I do agree "bare tubs" as in substrate, water bowl and hide are'nt my cup of tea either... a bit of decor or perch is'nt to difficult to add and would not go astray. I think whether tub or enclosure it's really the size of the space that matters. I have seen people get outraged at carpet in 3ft long tubs yet the same people don't have a problem if its a 3ft long wooden box

[Aaron_S]

I think you are trying to slam the tub keepers based on the fact you're presuming I do it to stuff a ridiculous amount of animals into the space I have available which simply isn't the case.

I believe I create an ideal habitat as I have mentioned what I do and why. I chose tubs for my ball pythons, again species specific, as I felt it created everything for my animals to thrive. I've kept ball pythons in fish cages and even other snake species. I just don't believe it it's actually ideal. I have better results with my snakes in bins.

I will have to say we're going to have to agree to disagree here as I thought you had already read multiple studies on this topic but you haven't. I was looking forward to reading all these "studies" but you can't offer them up and I apologize but I am not buying any ridiculously expensive books at this time of year.

Lastly, primates are a vastly different animal when we talk about this discussion. Again, I'm talking species specific as I know there seemingly are higher functioning snakes out there. Mostly the apex predators.

[KORBIN5895]

Fish cages? ,

[spots]

Originally Posted by KORBIN5895

Fish cages? ,

ROFL, I love it

[jarich]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

I think you are trying to slam the tub keepers based on the fact you're presuming I do it to stuff a ridiculous amount of animals into the space I have available which simply isn't the case.

I believe I create an ideal habitat as I have mentioned what I do and why. I chose tubs for my ball pythons, again species specific, as I felt it created everything for my animals to thrive. I've kept ball pythons in fish cages and even other snake species. I just don't believe it it's actually ideal. I have better results with my snakes in bins.

I will have to say we're going to have to agree to disagree here as I thought you had already read multiple studies on this topic but you haven't. I was looking forward to reading all these "studies" but you can't offer them up and I apologize but I am not buying any ridiculously expensive books at this time of year.

Ha! ha! Ah, there is the Aaron Ive come to expect! I was worried after your last post was so nice.

Just teasing you, man. Anyway, I thought I was pretty clear about my intentions a few hours ago. I was neither bashing you specifically or anyone else. I actually dont remember how many BPs you keep or if they are in racks or what, so Im not presuming about your habitats. For all I know you could have individual 80 gallon tubs for each one.

When we get right down to it, I suppose the actual cage structure isnt what we are talking about. Whether its plastic or glass, they essentially are just the 'house' we put the other things in. Both can easily be made to be a good or bad environment. I was talking about environmental enrichment, and the idea that it seems to be something people pay more attention to if they see it all the time (ie a glass tank). However, it does seem to be the case that we might have to agree to disagree. I just cant see how a barren tub could be considered ideal, but I dont think Ill be changing your mind on that.

Speaking of presumptions, why would you have the impression I didnt read the studies I mentioned? I wouldnt quote them if I didnt. I just said I couldnt find them anywhere online for you, thats all. I'll tell you what, if you ask real nice and promise to send them back, maybe Ill send them to you to read

[KORBIN5895]

I am officially requesting that the thread title be changed to something more appropriate. Like........ TUBS VS TANKS DEATH MATCH!

[Norm66]

Originally Posted by KORBIN5895

I am officially requesting that the thread title be changed to something more appropriate. Like........ TUBS VS TANKS DEATH MATCH!

LOL. Too true. And to think all I was doing was sharing my wife and my excitement about our new little pet.

Actually my wife bought a little pastel guy from a Facebook auction last night and we're going to house him in a tub and will eventually go into a rack system I'm either going to buy or build. Not because I can't make a tank work but for ease of care and also room factor.

[KORBIN5895]

The dark side is calling Norm.

[jarich]

Hahaha! Too funny Norm.

Na, no death match here. I find these discussions quite fun, and I think (hope) Aaron does as well. Plus I suppose it's not so much about tub or tank anymore, but about whether or not to enrich the environment, whatever the container. Of course that doesn't roll off the tongue as easily, so what the heck...Death Match!

[Norm66]

I never did weigh in on the enriched enclosure thing....

I'd have to say I'm a lot more likely to make an interesting enclosure but honestly I do it for myself as much or more than the critter. I enjoy making cool looking enclosures and even though I'm planning on going to a rack system soon I think I'll probably still stick with larger than strictly necessary enclosures with more stuff in them than is strictly necessary. I enjoy it and if the snakes get any benefit from it then all the better.

[Aaron_S]

Jarich, I do enjoy these discussions and I really was looking forward to reading those studies. I prefer to be wrong, as I usually learn something then.

I also totally thought I was nice in that last post stating that we'd just have to agree to disagree!

Death match is catchier....

[mykee]

"I've kept ball pythons in fish cages and even other snake species"

LOL, everything old is new again.