Question: Ethics in the reptile business

[M_surinamensis]

I'm not certain how things stand on this situation in Canada but here in the United States there is a pressing need to temper that desire to see bad dealers put out of business with a bit of caution as to how one goes about it. There are too many third party organizations here that are more than happy to see the reptile industry halted and destroyed, it makes it almost unsafe to make public comments about the bad guys in the industry because these organizations will jump all over any excuse to shut the pet trade down as a whole.

An easy and recent example can be found in California- the city of San Francisco took the Petco corporation to court over the conditions the local stores were keeping the reptiles in. Seems like a good situation, right? A retailer that was displaying inappropriate care conditions (this can be said of the stores in San Francisco, I'm not willing to categorize the entire chain in that light) is being shut down, made to take responsibility for their actions, tremendous victory... except... That court case strongly influenced public opinion. By public opinion I do not mean the opinion of those within the herp industry, I mean Joe Shmoe off the street corner who thinks black racers will roll into a hoop and chase you... This opened the door for those radical organizations to propose and introduce legislation that damages the industry as a whole, rather than just targeting that group of bad guys.

I fully agree that bad dealers/breeders/brokers and even bad hobbyists should be removed from their practices but I feel it should be a predominantly internal matter. With better public education from people who actually want to see the herp industry flourish as a whole in a positive manner, those bad guys will eventually be found out, outed as INDIVIDUALS rather than as falsely representative individuals of the industry as a whole and they will eventually go away as it becomes impossible for them to make money. Sure new bad guys are always going to drop up, some fool who thinks that he's had an original thought to rip people off, but as education becomes better and internal regulation becomes stronger (I do not mean regulation in the sense of formulated codes of behavior or action, I simply mean the industry looking out for itself) those people will have a harder and harder time getting away with it. The fact remains that the herp industry (in the united states anyway) is still MOSTLY a lot of people who already have reptiles buying or selling more reptiles, there is an increasing number of keepers who do not fit the traditional mold of a "reptile guy" or "snake lady" but it remains the responsibility of the educated and experienced individuals to guide the industry as a whole.

Basically what I meant by all of that was... education from those directly involved with the industry is far better than regulation from any outside source. Education covers not just basic care but ethics, morals, responsibility and the sharing of positive or negative experiences with individuals within the hobby.

Just as a bit of a side note; I personally don't see anything wrong with the legal collection of wild specimens for resale. The captive populations do need an influx of "new blood" to maintain genetic diversity (look at bearded dragons) and proper health, the collection is approved and legal in certain numbers that have been determined by multiple sources to be safe to collect without damaging the wild populations and the individuals who take the time to get wild caught animals dewormed, feeding and into sellable condition deserve whatever minimal markup they choose to add.

The above statements constitute my opinions, opinions I am willing to debate for what they are, but not something I am stating everyone should unthinkingly agree with, I am merely presenting my thoughts on the matters.

[V.aw]

To Linds, No iam not picking on your or anything.. But your post is kind of hypocritical. Ive seen you gloating and raving about certain pet stores. One that hosts this site ( i wont say just because iam not going to be banned over a post) And i know a quite a few people will not even step foot into that store due to mite problems, and the general care of their animals. Maybe iam wrong. I think you'll probably get wind of who iam talking about, so maybe you can clarify this.

And before people start claiming iam accusing them, as i know quite a few people host this site, but there is one right on the top that has links all over the place too. Iam sure you can figure this out without really getting annoyed. Sorry to all those who are offended by this post. It's just something ive noticed, and its something that really makes me boil.

[V.aw]

Oh, just to clairfy one thing as well. I forgot Ssnakess.com has their own store now. I'am not directing this post at them, as they are the main store support for this site. Iam talking about the other
ssnakess store isnt bad!! so dont get my post confused heheheh

[paul_le_snake]

LMFAO, quality posts v.aw, but could u be a bit more helpful..i have no idea what store ur referring too????? ROTFLMAO

[sSNAKESs.com]

Originally posted by V.aw
One that hosts this site (

I wasnt aware that i owned a pet store... This site is hosted by me and Laurynn.

[sSNAKESs.com]

For those who are not aware of what is going on, Port Credit Pet Center in Mississauga wholesales the online store. This site is owned and operated 100% by myself and my girlfriend Laurynn and our moderation team. Your feelings about our online store or our suppliers are fine, but please dont get it twisted and state facts that are not true.

[V.aw]

Jeff, that is why i had the second post saying that what i said was unrelated to the snakes store. And the main supporter of this site is pcpc. linked to your online store or not still has a bad reputation for their animal care.

I wasn't refering to yourself or the people you mentioned in your post. sorry for the confusion.

[sSNAKESs.com]

Adam, I knew what you were getting at, but in the above post you had said the store that hosts the site, but the site is owned by myself and Laurynn only and it is hosted on my unix box. =/ i was just clarifying for those who could have been confused.

[paul_le_snake]

just out of intersest, what is ur connection to pcpc jeff?

[sSNAKESs.com]

On a personal level outside of the reptile industry altogether, the owner (Grant) of PCPC is a friend of mine. On a buisness level, PCPC wholesales the dry goods for the online store.

[V.aw]

doh, ok stupid me. sorry for the spam

[Linds]

V.aw,
Now I am terribly confused I have NEVER gloated or raved about ANY store. Would you care to direct me to such a post??? The only thing I have ever said about any store is the store I work at... Kris' Reptiles... that the animals there are always cared for to the best of the stores abilities, have clean water, and are well fed. Now this store has never had any affiliation with this site in any way, as far as I know I'm the only person from that store even to visit this site. So ya know, this is starting to come across as picking and its wearing really thin. It seems you are looking for something wrong with my posts - and now making material up altogether. So be careful before you label me a hypocrite... everything I have said in that post was nothing short of my most sincere and honest feelings, and it sickens me that anyone would think otherwise. I care about these animals more than anyone could ever know. I value them above all else. If you can't see that, well, then that's that - but in the future please be more careful when throwing labels and accusations.

[V.aw]

Linds, ive been on this website for awhile, as have you. Don't act like you've never recommended port credit to anybody. Ive seen it done, and ive seen many people recommend this store. Their rep isnt very good at all, and i requested someone to say why their rep shoul dnbe saved. And you have recommended this place in the past. Why?

[Linds]

Letting someone know that I had seen the animal they were looking for at PCPC is a far cry from "gloating and raving about". PCPC happens to get in alot of animals that can be extremely difficult to come by in Canada, such as locality specific rosies, and if someone is having trouble finding a particular animal, and I know Grant has it, why should I withhold that info??? Would you feel it better that I lie and say that I do not know anyone that has what they are looking for? I have never once commented on the store itself, the practices, or anything - I simply answer questions that are asked. Nothing wrong or immoral about that.

[Matt_K]

For someone that said they weren't going to slander a store you're sure throwing names around now.. Is it so hard for people to bite their lip?? If you dont like the store, then dont go there, plain and simple..