Fish!

[mistersprinkles]

Originally Posted by Reptile_Reptile

im not supporting anything just saying its still a fish man made or not haha. why cant fish just be reintroduced into the wild not trying to debate jw

You can't reintroduce a fish into a parking lot. Habitat loss is the main factor .

[Reptile_Reptile]

ah that sucks

[mistersprinkles]

Yup. The whole fish trade thing is messed up. Some fish only exist in the wild BECAUSE of it. Dwarf Gouramis in Bangladesh would all have been eaten or died from having pollution dumped into their water ways. The only reason they are purposely preserved is that it's worth a lot more to net half a million of them a month and sell them to pet wholesalers...

Ultra double edged sword... Some parts of the Xingu river in south america are preserved because there's a kind of small catfish there that goes for $100-$300 a pop. You can net 1000 of them and have a very very nice payday. Same thing goes for discus. People will pay $100 a go for a fish that you can easily catch hundreds of with a surface net and a canoe.

Is taking animals from the wild for 'use' as pets right? No. Is paving over a pond right?
The whole thing is really messed up.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by mistersprinkles

That is horribly wrong for so many reasons. You're keeping the equivalent of a bearded dragon and a GTP together.

Frontosa= pH > 8 gH > 9 temp 79

Clown Loach pH < 7 (CRITICAL) gH < 6 (CRITICAL) temp 85 (SUPER critical)

Your clown loaches will never reach full size and will eventually peter out and die. Frontosas stunt and do not live their full life span unless they are kept in a minimum six foot by two foot tank. Ideally eight foot by 18" as they can exceed 12". Clownloaches, similarly, can exceed 12".

Also, cory cats should not be kept in groups smaller than 12 for their psychological wellbeing.

What you need to do is remove everything that's incompatible with what you want to keep, and clown loach and frontosa are not on your option list for that size tank. I know a lot of people say otherwise. I gave a lecture at a zoo and worked in the aquarium section in a petshop and was also good friends with a renowned expert on loaches who has written several books (Martin Thoene, Clown loaches, TFH). I know what I'm talking about. In any event you also have to lose the golden algae eater by when it hits full size as it will become aggressive to other fish. They eat other fish's skin when they are adults, not algae.

Humane options:

Keep the yellow labs, build a tank around them, add other compatible fish, like another group of mbuna from lake malawi. You want to go to Cichlid-Forum.com and post in the lake malawi section. Good choices would be several different male peacocks and a couple of synodontis catfish.

Option B:

Keep corys. Add 10 more. Build a south american tank. Add a pair of angel fish, a trio of rams, and a group of tetras.


In Toronto if you want to go south american you want to talk to Harold at Menagerie Petshop. Parliament and Wellesley. If you want to go African Cichlids, talk to Mike at Finatics on Kennedy south of Eglinton. Harold can also help you set up the proper environment to grow plants if you're interested.

My daughter has a 20 gallon with giant danios, a pearl danio, dwarf fire gourami, clown loach, 4 cory cats and some guppy/endler hybrids.

danios are too fast for gouramis and frighten them. Clown loaches in a 20 gallon is cruel. This setup would get you kicked off a lot of fish forums if you even mentioned it. You REALLY need to get it together because the setups you have are not conducive to good health or calm animals. I've bred more fish than most people have kept and many people consider me an expert. You're not doing nice things for your fish.

This is the proper way to keep fish

Movie_0007.mp4 video by 111olbap - Photobucket

You put things together that don't bother eachother.

Movie_0001-2.mp4 video by 111olbap - Photobucket

Here at 34 seconds, the baby nanoluteus gets too close to the black paradise, and the black paradise wiggles to inform it, and the nano leans away in submission. That's the most 'fighting' you should ever see.

Movie_0009.mp4 video by 111olbap - Photobucket

Here at 20 seconds, the bristlenose pleco has had enough of the nano stealing it's food, and opens its tail as a threat. Since the fish both speak the same language, the nano understands and goes away. Fish speak several distinct languages both in clicks which are inaudible to humans and with body language. A malawi cichlid's 'get lost or I will hurt you' is a convict cichlids 'i want to mate'. This causes MANY beat up convicts when they are kept in malawi tanks.

Sometimes things outright kill eachother. Assassins won't kill trumpets. They will kill ramshorns. If I put ramshorn snails in there that'd be irresponsible.

First of all don't be a wimp and say "you're not attacking me" and not to get offended when you rightfully are attacking me by calling me inhumane.

Secondly, you just out right came attacking me. You didn't ask questions first. For an expert to just come out and NOT ask a question first tells me you aren't one. You do not know how old my fish are, how long I've kept them this way or if they are being moved to larger digs or not. I have done plenty of research and spoke openly on cichlid forums before I put my tanks together.

I know how large frontosa's get. I know how much room they need. I also know about cory cats as well as clown loaches.I know they'll be moved up in tank size or out soon. I also know how big my gold algae eater will get and what happens when it is that large. I have done my homework as well as worked in multiple pet shops tending to the aquariums.

I know my 20 gallon is a jumble currently but they don't harm one another. I don't see a stress problem with my danios and gourami. They do quite well together. I actually find the gourami to be one of the more voracious feeders. I am not trying to breed these fish. I would keep pair specific tanks if I was.

Now if I kept rainbow fish in there with the gourami I could see a problem occuring but the danios aren't nuts. They swim fast but not to the point of stressing out my gourami.

Thank you for your time. I understand your feelings towards my fish but I do take care of them and put their needs ahead. Next time though be sure to ask a question or two first.

My parameters are fine, my temps are fine and all is good.
By the way no fish needs an EXACT temp or PH level. It can differ by a point or two. We're creating an ecosystem here and there will be tiny fluctuations in them.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by mistersprinkles

Yup. The whole fish trade thing is messed up. Some fish only exist in the wild BECAUSE of it. Dwarf Gouramis in Bangladesh would all have been eaten or died from having pollution dumped into their water ways. The only reason they are purposely preserved is that it's worth a lot more to net half a million of them a month and sell them to pet wholesalers...

Ultra double edged sword... Some parts of the Xingu river in south america are preserved because there's a kind of small catfish there that goes for $100-$300 a pop. You can net 1000 of them and have a very very nice payday. Same thing goes for discus. People will pay $100 a go for a fish that you can easily catch hundreds of with a surface net and a canoe.

Is taking animals from the wild for 'use' as pets right? No. Is paving over a pond right?
The whole thing is really messed up.

The whole fish trade is messed up but you do know as long as someone buys these animals it will always be this way. People in those area do this to put food on their table. Not because they like the destruction. Always remember that if you were starving and trying to make a living you'd do some outstanding things that others may not like too.

[stephanbakir]

Nice, i used to breed discus and ciclids, great fun.

[mistersprinkles]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

First of all don't be a wimp and say "you're not attacking me" and not to get offended when you rightfully are attacking me by calling me inhumane.

Secondly, you just out right came attacking me. You didn't ask questions first. For an expert to just come out and NOT ask a question first tells me you aren't one. You do not know how old my fish are, how long I've kept them this way or if they are being moved to larger digs or not. I have done plenty of research and spoke openly on cichlid forums before I put my tanks together.

I know how large frontosa's get. I know how much room they need. I also know about cory cats as well as clown loaches.I know they'll be moved up in tank size or out soon. I also know how big my gold algae eater will get and what happens when it is that large. I have done my homework as well as worked in multiple pet shops tending to the aquariums.

I know my 20 gallon is a jumble currently but they don't harm one another. I don't see a stress problem with my danios and gourami. They do quite well together. I actually find the gourami to be one of the more voracious feeders. I am not trying to breed these fish. I would keep pair specific tanks if I was.

Now if I kept rainbow fish in there with the gourami I could see a problem occuring but the danios aren't nuts. They swim fast but not to the point of stressing out my gourami.

Thank you for your time. I understand your feelings towards my fish but I do take care of them and put their needs ahead. Next time though be sure to ask a question or two first.

My parameters are fine, my temps are fine and all is good.
By the way no fish needs an EXACT temp or PH level. It can differ by a point or two. We're creating an ecosystem here and there will be tiny fluctuations in them.

Actually I was polite but you've called me a wimp so now I will insult you back. You're a moron. And you're getting your back up. I'm sure you've had your fish for a long time. A lot of animals can survive incorrect conditions for a very long time. And yes, you can keep clown loaches at 80, and at low oxygen levels in an alkaline pH, but they will never reach full size, nor will they live their proper life span.

I didn't need to ask a question. Your post had idiot written all over it and so does this one. I feel for your fish, and for your tiny fragile ego. If you say you have a dog that you never walk, do I need to ask questions? No, I already have enough information to tell you're screwing up here.

BTW if you knew your rear end from your elbow you'd know an aquarium is NOT an ecosystem. It is a very basic scaffolding for one with many, many parts missing- especially nitrogen export and carbon production. Why do you think you do water changes? Said ecosystem can't even maintain it's own mineral balance or nitrogen balance.

Your clowns aren't in that african tank until they're bigger, they're in there until they die at the same size they are now. I'd put money on it.

[mistersprinkles]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

The whole fish trade is messed up but you do know as long as someone buys these animals it will always be this way. People in those area do this to put food on their table. Not because they like the destruction. Always remember that if you were starving and trying to make a living you'd do some outstanding things that others may not like too.

Ya. I know. That's what I'm saying. There's something very wrong with people like you.
"I keep my pet tiger in a closet but it's ok it's been alive on hamburger for three years". And, by the way, you can work in a pet shop and be a moron, I see it every day. I've gotten people fired for the amount of incorrect info they were spouting because I was friends with the manager. Go ask Harold and Mike if Pablo knows what he's talking about. They'll tell you I'm a prick but they won't tell you I don't know my stuff.

I never said your gourami wouldn't feed. If it's a male, does it have a huge bubblenest that it always maintains perfectly? If not, it's stressed. Odds are it's male as most of the blood/flame honey gouramis sold and all of the red dwarfs sold are male in the pet trade.

The only reason nobody else is crying bloody murder is that they don't know fish. If you had a cornsnake in a shoe box, which you essentially do, they'd be on you. I know a LOT of people who keep clown loaches with africans. Those of us who know better call those people morons and try to educate them but they insist that their archaic 1980's misinformation is correct. Do your africans let your clowns nap on their side during the day for hours on end like they'd like to? Is your substrate soft enough for the clowns to burrow without hurting themselves? Are all their barbels long and perfect? What? No? That's not even taking into account that they NEED acidic water and higher temps than tanganyikans can tolerate. I don't mean need to live until October, I mean need to live until 2030 like they're supposed to and hit 12" like they're supposed to.

Loaches Online - Community Edition &mdash; Loaches Online go tell that forum what you've got. They'll say worse than I have. You read the part where I said I was friends with someone who WROTE A BOOK on clown loaches, ya? Who do you think knows more about them, me or you? Go on loaches.com MT-ED is Martin Thoene who wrote said book. Enjoy.

[Aaron_S]

Buddy you didn't even touch the fact about doing my homework. You continue to say things about the friends you have. I have friends too who know a lot about snakes but I don't use their names to back up my claims. I don't care who your friends are.

You still assume that I'm keeping this tank this way until everything dies. You assume wrong. I keep my fish for a period of time until I move them into a larger aquarium or until they reach the point that I can no longer house them, in such I then sell said fish. Again though you just want to sit on your high horse and claim I'm a moron but yet you still didn't ask a question. You didn't even touch on the fact that I actually test my water. You simply point out the parts that make you look entirely right. I am vigilant when it comes to my water quality.

My cichlids actually don't bother the clown loach. It lays around like you said, does have long barbels for it's size and I keep my fish on soft enough substrate. Again I did my research. I don't plan on keeping this tank until 2030.


In regards to the tiger in a closet comment I actually was talking strictly about the fish trade in your other post. You continued on about my first post with a wholly different quote. I don't see where I said that the fish trade in other countries where these fish are captured is so that a family can eat for a night has anything to do with your tiger analogy.

[marvelfreak]

Originally Posted by mistersprinkles

You read the part where I said I was friends with someone who WROTE A BOOK on clown loaches, ya? Who do you think knows more about them, me or you?

I said your friend. Just because your friend wrote a book about them doesn't mean you a expert.

[mistersprinkles]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

Buddy you didn't even touch the fact about doing my homework. You continue to say things about the friends you have. I have friends too who know a lot about snakes but I don't use their names to back up my claims. I don't care who your friends are.

You still assume that I'm keeping this tank this way until everything dies. You assume wrong. I keep my fish for a period of time until I move them into a larger aquarium or until they reach the point that I can no longer house them, in such I then sell said fish. Again though you just want to sit on your high horse and claim I'm a moron but yet you still didn't ask a question. You didn't even touch on the fact that I actually test my water. You simply point out the parts that make you look entirely right. I am vigilant when it comes to my water quality.

My cichlids actually don't bother the clown loach. It lays around like you said, does have long barbels for it's size and I keep my fish on soft enough substrate. Again I did my research. I don't plan on keeping this tank until 2030.


In regards to the tiger in a closet comment I actually was talking strictly about the fish trade in your other post. You continued on about my first post with a wholly different quote. I don't see where I said that the fish trade in other countries where these fish are captured is so that a family can eat for a night has anything to do with your tiger analogy.

Oh wow you have ONE of the most social fish there is. That's smart. So even worse. You're the one missing the point- you can test all you want, the fish need incompatible parameters. You screw everyone at 7.2pH or screw the loaches at 8.4 and keep the Fronts happy or screw the fronts at 6.7 and keep the clowns happy.

Truly, sir, you are a tool. I didn't doubt you were growing the fish out to sell them. That doesn't make it any better.

I'm mentioning the people I know because I know actual accredited experts, and ya that backs up what I'm saying. If you told me what I was doing with my snake was utterly wrong and you knew Philippe de Vosjoli, who wrote the ball python manual, and my sname was a ball python, you're damn right I'd listen to you. I'M not the idiot.

[mistersprinkles]

Originally Posted by marvelfreak

I said your friend. Just because your friend wrote a book about them doesn't mean you a expert.

What planet are you people from? Seriously. . You don't think I've soaked up a lot of knowledge from reading the guy's book and spending hours with him talking about fish and seeing his setups? Are you for real?

There's something wrong with you guys I'm done with this thread. Some people are so stupid they actually get offended when someone tells them 'you're doing it wrong'. Absolutely pathetic.

And ya, Aaron, what ARE your water parameters? Gimme your pH/gH or TDS/kH/temp as well as your nH3/4 No2/No3 (I can already hear the 'i don't have a full test kit' but I'll wait) and what filtration and heating you're using. And send me a photo of your lone clown loach I guarantee you I can pick out a dozen things wrong with it, but you don't care about its well being, do you? I'd like to add that were I still working at a pet store, if you told me what you had and didn't listen to advice, I would refuse to sell you any live animal. You must have worked at a PJs or Big Als to be so pig headed.

[marvelfreak]

Originally Posted by mistersprinkles

What planet are you people from? Seriously. . You don't think I've soaked up a lot of knowledge from reading the guy's book and spending hours with him talking about fish and seeing his setups? Are you for real?

There's something wrong with you guys I'm done with this thread. Some people are so stupid they actually get offended when someone tells them 'you're doing it wrong'. Absolutely pathetic.

Kind of like you every time some one says something you don't agree with. I read threw most of your posts and for some one who knows it all i don't why you waste your time here. Oh wait yes i do you just want to tell everyone there wrong.

[mistersprinkles]

One's hobby is not a high horse nor is it something to rub in peoples face. At no point have I done that except here because somebody needs to be straightened out urgently.

I do NOT know everything, or anywhere NEAR everything.

I know a lot about: colubrids
I know a significant amout about: Pythons, boas, aquatic turtles

Significantly deficient in knowledge on: land turtles, tortoises, most lizards (excluding most geckos), amphibians, crocodilians,

I know freshwater fish hands down. I'm here to help people with things I do know, and ask for help with things I don't. Have you seen my bearded dragon or cricket powder threads? I don't know much about them do I?

That's how a forum works man. I know stuff, you know stuff, we exchange, we both know more. If one of us tells the other that they're doing something wrong, then it needs to be looked into.

I submit for both of your consideration that if I didn't absolutely know I was right and know that what this guy is doing is cruel, I wouldn't word everything so strongly and risk getting kicked off of a forum. The clown loaches are being borderline tortured, hands down. I'm sorry if that doesn't work for you. I can tell you the sky is green if you want but it won't change anything. It is what it is.

[mistersprinkles]

Originally Posted by marvelfreak

Kind of like you every time some one says something you don't agree with.

You know you can't find me a single example outside this thread where I'm snippity to anybody.