Why mice?

[sav302]

Why does everyone feed mice to there monitors rather than rats, arent mice more fat and less protein?

[bear24]

Most people don't just feed rats or mice. I mix it up with fish, eggs shell and all(hard boiled or raw), ground turkey and cuts of beef. A few other whole prey items like chicks and degus help with variety.

[End Times]

In comparison, an equally sized rat and mouse have very little difference in nutrience actually. The only plus size to rats is there size, making them a better choice as a single prey item can often be offered rather than several mice at once. But, gram for gram, there is no difference.

[SHvar]

Mice are a proven diet, rats are rodents, but do not work as well for monitors. Mice have a higher fats content by mass, but are several times smaller than say an equivlavent age rat. Rats are large meals, mice are small meals, the fact seems that many small meals over a period of time as opposed to one large meal works better, why is that? Simple, it takes alot more water, time, heat, and time spent exposing themselves in the open for a reptile to digest a large meal when they would be normally basking for short periods, then hiding in between.
Personally I didnt use rats with my largest albig until she was 6ft long, I fed mice, chicken peeps.
The idea is that whole animals are the best diet in general by far, but from those whole animals so far mice have shown the best sucess as a single item. What many people may hypothesize as good or bad about them seems to not matter if the animal is kept close to correct.
Think of it this way, a proper diet is one ingredient in a sucessful soup, that soup is made from a mix of diet, temperatures, lack of stress, humidity levels, lack of disease and parasites, as well other available needs.

[sav302]

Thank you for all your answers, its kind of good to hear that they are better to use becuase there cheaper and also I can spend more money on bugs and other food for it.

[PhrynopsH_]

Originally Posted by SHvar

Think of it this way, a proper diet is one ingredient in a sucessful soup, that soup is made from a mix of diet, temperatures, lack of stress, humidity levels, lack of disease and parasites, as well other available needs.

What is the name of this soup, so that I can stay away from it? All this knowledge, all this experience, all of this wisdom... Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't you managed to kill off 2/3 of your albigs this year, as well as 1/2 of your acanthurus??? It seems your "success soup" is missing some key ingredients... or are you a ''do as I say, not as I've done'' kind of guy...?

Are there any online monitor forums that you aren't preaching your 'wisdom' to??

J.P

As for the original poster of this thread, why don't you experiment with rats in your collection. Just because everybody else does something other than what you feel or think is no reason why you shouldn't experiment with what may work with your particular individual/s. I personally do not see a big difference between rats and mice other than the obvious size differences between the two. I have fed rats to my monitors, as well as mice, both of which were taken with equal gusto, with no difference in effects. To account for the larger size of the rats, I simply cut them into pieces with sheers, and feed pieces, as opposed to whole rats.

The problem that I see with these online forums, is that some people may assume 'dominant' roles, or unofficial 'forum leader' status(people seeking out power, or trying to finally "be a somebody"), offering all of their insightful advice and "wisdom"(much of which may be regurgitations of what others have already said..), where novice keepers and new hobbyists are ever so quick to take what these people say or recommend for granted, without ever testing different approaches for themselves. Individual monitors react differently to different stimuli, and it's up to you to figure out what works best for your particular animals, not copying what others have done. If you feel that there is not a difference between the benefits of mice and rats(which I agree with), I suggest you test it with your animals. This is how we learn about our captives. Not listening to what the 'forum gods' have to say, or what they tell you to do. You have a great approach and train of thought; looking 'outside the box'... Don't believe all the hype..

Good Luck!

[crocdoc]

Nice post, Phrynops.

Adding my two cents to this thread, the reason I think so many people use mice rather than rats for their monitors is this: Large monitors can eat a whole adult mouse, small monitors can't eat a whole adult rat. If you had a large collection of different sized monitors, the one rodent you can be guaranteed all of them could eat would be mice, so rather than breed mice for the small ones and rats for the large ones, you'd breed mice for all of them - just feed the larger monitors several mice when you'd normally give them one rat.

I don't breed rodents, so my monitors get a bit of everything, rats, mice, chicks, crayfish, SDZ turkey diet... you name it. They grow and reproduce and are as healthy as anything.

[SHvar]

I also use one identity to post under.
Lets look at what happened this year, yes I had 3 male monitors die, guess what it all happened in 2 months time.
Of course I will elaborate, I wont point the finger at someone else without knowing what happened and run my mouth to make accusations that I dont know anything about.
When I first moved into this house and was halfway through building a few cages I had a flooding problem. The problem was solved, next the floor tiles peeled up, guess what the water was coming up through holes drilled by the former owner, to prevent the possibility of termites, they pumped a potent pesticide into the holes for years before that pesticide was pulled off of the marketbecause it was to dangerous to use around animals and kids, these holes were not sealed off correctly. During the process of dealing with the water and drilling these holes out then sealing each properly some had to be left open to bleed off pressure until the water dropped low enough to seal them. The cages were in place 3 of these contained all 3 male monitors only along one wall, 3 serious leaks were under these cages, now this was the straw that broke the camels back. During this time I was neglecting to notice a few problems with the animals, I was way too busy for 1/4th of what I needed to get done.
Now, lets also look at a history of each of these animals, 1 male albig was over 2 yrs old when I got him, he was barely 2 ft long and 2 lbs exactly, his history of problems were explained to me by the great guy who bred and sold him to me. During the few years I had him he more than doubled in length in that first year, and was over 10lbs. During this period of growth as pointed out by a few others in person his "lump" on his back got proportionately larger, I had it x-rayed, yes his backbone has a 90 degree bend in it, also a bad twist, his ribs were piled up (3 of them, with number 4 also rubbing the others).During this time the vet told me this may or may not effect his future health, depends on how the backbone bends or not during growth. Guess what he grew, and grew, and it folded further, at this point his appetite dropped off, he became dehydrated, he became lazy from his condition, nothing worked to bring him back around, guess what the vet was right, it did effect him throughout his normal growth, his spinal cord couldnt take it anymore. Of course if you dont belive me you can see the animal, hes still frozen for future reference.
Next, a good friend owed me money, couldnt keep both whitethroats any longer, the cape banded WT I was given had a history we could partially trace in pieces through at least 4 owners, maybe more. This animal was the size of a well started hatchling when he showed up, guess what, we found out later he was 6.5 years or older at that point alone, he went from Frank Retes hands (he bred this animal) to the original owner who had no clue what he was doing, he changed hands to another and another who traded him to another at one reptile show, to another who finally sold him as a young female. During this time my friend provided better care than this poor creature ever saw in its life, it grew to 3ft long from 16 inches. I was given this creature a month before the whole water problem began. He grew to 4ft long in 2 months, was doing good as we could tell at least. He was moved into one of the 3 cages.
Next, the male ackie, he was obtained from a private collection by someone who attempted to breed red ackies for a year or 2, this was suposed to be the 1 yr old male when I obtained him from 2 males available. He was fed almost exclusively ground turkey with vitamin dust added with occasional crickets his entire life, I switched him to crickets, lobster roaches, superworms, and some pinkies, fuzzies. He grew in the time I had him from around 18 inches to 24 inches and bred with a female I obtained from another "joker" who had 3 available red ackies with serious calcium deficiancies, missing body parts, and the male looked like a balloon. During the time she layed eggs all heck broke loose with the flooding, etc etc, and after the second clutch was infertile I knew there was a problem, he went down hill when kept in the same place as the other 2 males during the same time, do you know how hard it was to find the culprit, fix these problems and find out this was just what finished them off. Afterwards the last hole was sealed 8 inches in hydrauliuc cement, the floor sealed, then all new tiles sealed over top. Some of the mistakes with their care were mine, but yes these were mistakes during this time against my advice I give, you know the best teacher is experience and bad luck. It took alot to find out what happened to each, and Im glad to tell others, to admit I took some shortcuts and just as the commercial says "life comes at you fast".
I could point the finger at people who in a few months time have killed more animals than many here keep, I gave advice to several of these people and it saved their animals turned them around. But I wont because these guys have admitted freely that they made those mistakes, its their business, and they also freely thanked me and keep me updated on the amazing progress they would have never imagined since I helped them. These are keepers of monitors, beardies, tegus, uros, etc. Im glad to help others, just as I told them, you can take the advice or not, its your choice. Everyone of them said the same thing in different words, " Iwas leery to belive some of the advice, but tried it because nothing else worked", "I want to thankyou for helping me, I cant believe it worked so good, so easily". Many of these people dont post or read much reptile forums anymore, I get calls and emails regularly from them, including pictures showing the progress, some of these animals I see in person also.
I was given some of this advice at one time, I didnt believe it either, I was asked instead of doubting it, instead of saying its wrong without trying it for myself, I was asked to try and compare results, to prove it to myself. Guess what this is why I can say it works.
Personally with my albigs Ive used more chickens and quail with the same results, at some stages of life mine have prefferred them over rodents. They let me know when they want or need something different, I just offer it and see what happens.

Shawn

[paulsreef]

When you mention feeding ground turkey, is it cooked or raw? If raw, aren't you worried about samonella?

[PhrynopsH_]

SHvar,

It's not about admitting to mistakes...of course we all make them, and many of us are more than willing to elaborate on our failures with others. The point that I am trying to annunciate here, is that people like yourself who have not experienced long term success(or short term success for that matter), should not be offering their "insightful advice" to others; many of which being newcomers to the hobby(who may take anything which 'sounds' good to be granted), telling them what to do, giving them your caresheet, etc.

Would you honestly take the advice of somebody/replicate somebody's husbandry, if they had just killed off 3/5 of their collection within a year?(regadless of what the keeper claims to be the causes of their demise). Put yourself in somebody else's shoes, who is trying to improve their conditions, or learn about how to set up their husbandry properly. What merit or experience are you coming from, to be making caresheets, or telling others what's good or isn't good for their animals??

The way I see it SHvar, you come to all of these forums(most of which are comprised of beginner/novice hobbyists), make up elaborate caresheets, share your extensive 'wisdom' and 'experiences', and thoughts/ideas(many of which are just rephrased/reworded quotes from experienced, successful keepers) with your animals over the years, just to woo over, and gain the respect of all of these unsuspecting 'newbie' hobbyists. From what I have been able to gather from the dozen or so forums you are a contributing member of(yes, I lurk in the shawdows), is that you are on a power trip, trying to make a name for yourself amongst all of these new and unsuspecting keepers..

Quite possibly the most ridiculous moment which supprts my claim, is a particular post, (I believe it was on repticzone) in which a beginner keeper specifically asked for SHvar's advice in helping him figure out if a Varanus salvator was the same thing as an Asian Water Monitor. When somebody else replied with the obvious, correct answer that they were in fact the same(I believe it was Jody Piper), the poster said, "thanks for your help Jody, but I am waiting to see hear what SHvar has to say". You are on just about every beginner monitor forum there is, preaching the same regurgitated 'wisdom', about giving your animals choices, offering optimal conditions, etc.. making forum participants to ooh and ahh over your knowledge and experience - much acclaimed by newcomer hobbyists...

I do ask you, do you think you would have the same 'support' or 'following' on these beginner forums, if you were to attach the fact that you killed 3/5 of your monitors this past year, to the bottom of every post?? Would people still listen to you? or take your advice?

My point is, is that you have utterly failed with more than half of your animals... I do not think that you should be making caresheets based on your limited experiences(failures) with monitors, telling others what to do, or what is right or wrong, or what ingredients they need for keeping their animals alive or successfully...

good day to you

J.P

[SHvar]

I could care less about what someone else thinks of myself or what name or label anyone puts on me.
I have said many times to others "If I cannot help you, I will direct you to someone who can". I give advice I was given from others that worked for me over the years, some advice I have found against others opinions that worked.
How many people are actually giving advice on forums that they themselves pioneered, very very few. The list is small enough to count on one hand.
Over the years Ive recieved and shared advice with others in this hobby as well experiences and pictures.
So tell me what makes you an authority on what my long or short term sucess is?
What makes or allows you to be placed in a position to say I cannot help others with my experiences and advice I was given over the years from many people that is good advice. Wouldnt you have someone give advice that works rather than someone answer the question who last week asked the same question about their first monitor?
Oh your numbers are wrong, so now your lieing or making up numbers to make yourself look better. Why, it wasnt 3/5 of my collection, it was 3/11ths of my monitors, and 3/13ths of my reptiles and 1/5th of my collection. To point the finger you need to get your facts straight. Also I post on 2 forums regularly (1 of these I dont currently post anymore), I have posted in the last year on 4 others less times than I could count on 2 hands each, all 4 I was invited by others who belong there or by the forum owner. Mostly these have been "new pictures, havent post in a while", "red ackie eggs", "red ackie eggs hatching". I dont have the time to spend all day posting, or creating new identities to troll with.
So would you attach to your posts and advice that you lie about others to make yourself seem better in a new keepers eyes, also that you havent posted except but to argue and troll.
Ill freely admit I had a few good eggs that didnt hatch, one was eaten by feeder insects before I got to it, several eggs werent even fertile, one attempted to hatch when it didnt develop completely, as I was told by a well known breeder of monitors after he asked for details about the situation on the phone, "that one was probably just not meant to survive from that description", I couldnt tell you for sure.
I thought this was neat, I have ackie hatchlings that have grown so fast by just setting them up and feeding them the way I usually keep my monitors, only in a smaller temporary cage for now, that they are according to others approaching whats considered "breeding size" at 2 months old, both are well over 10 inches long, one even has a tail nip from another at 2 days old when they were eating straight out of the incubator as soon as they hit the dirt in the cage.
I have also done things with my husbandry that I was told by sucessful experienced individuals that it wouldnt work or was wrong and made predictions for the heck of it about what would happen, what I did worked, so I guess I regurgitated their advice, lol.