Vivaria idea

[-okapi-]

I plan on making a shoreline vivarium for my bull frog (Rana Catesbeiana) out of a 55 gallon aquarium. I plan on having two thirds of it water, and one third land. Heres how i plan on doing it:
First i plan on putting down an undergravel filter. Then i plan on laying down a layer of pea sized gravel, about 2-3 inches thick. On top of that i plan on having a rising layer of larger river rock that will create my land area. Half way up i will have a piece of driftwood to keep the bank stable and to plant java ferns (Microsorium Pteropus) on. At the top of the land area i will use a half stump to hide a filter. Opposite of that (the front side of the land area) i will have a log-like piece of drift wood. Around the land area i will plant Acorus Gramineus. In the shallow area of the water above the java fern i plan on planting a Nymphoids Aquatica. In the shallows i also plan on growing some java moss (Vesicularia Dubyana) on the rocks. Where the slope stops i will plant an Anubias Nana, and some Echinodorus Tenellus. In the far back corner of the aquatic part i plan on planting some Ludwigia Glandulosa. Between this and the Anubias i will have Bacopa Caroliniana and some Vallisneria Tortifolia. Along the tank's side on the deep end i will have some Elodea Densa. In front of the Ludwigia i plan on having an Aponogeton Crispus. In the shallowest part of the water i plan on planting a Spathiphyllum Wallisii. Floating in the water i plan on having some Duckweed (Lemna Minor).
Heres a picture i drew in paint:
[IMG]frog[/IMG]
In the water i plan on having 3 fish species:
1.2+ swordtail (Xiphophorus Helleri)
0.0.12 Guppy (Poecilia Reticulata)
0.0.3 Corys (Corydoras spp.)
The swords, corys, and guppies will produce ammonia and CO2. The ammonia will feed the "good" bacteria, which will produce more CO2 and Nitrates. The plants will utilize these as a source of nutrients. The corys will also help by keeping the substrate free of debris.

When i set up the aquarium, if i plant it heavily, add the fish (all 3 species are very hardy), and add some good bacteria from a filter from another tank, then the aquarium should stablize quickly. Then after about 2 months, the plants roots should be spread enought that i can add my frog. If i put in the frog too soon, all the plants will be bulldozed as the frog swims around.

Now for the questions:

What kind of lights should i use in the tank to keep the plants alive?

I plan on hooking up a power filter to the undergravel filter (basically the same idea as a powerhead), with the power filter above the land area behind the stump, hooked up to the the undergravel filter plate on the deep end via a 4 ft long tube that goes along the bottem of the tank, under the gravel, then makes a 90 degree turn up to the power filter's intake. Will this idea work? Or is it too strong of a suction to give the bacteria time to work on the ammonia and wastes? Also what kind of a power filter should i use? (like a normal 55 gallon powerfilter or something smaller?)

Should i use a CO2 bubbler, or do you think the fish, frog, and bacteria will produce enough CO2 during the day?

Thanks in advance!

[-okapi-]

Plant picture links:

Anubias Nana http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/p...=26&pCatId=815
Acorus Gramineus http://www.floridata.com/ref/A/acor_gra.cfm
Aponogeton Crispus http://www.aquariumlandscapes.net/aq...on-crispus.cfm
Bacopa Caroliniana http://www.azgardens.com/images/2bunch3.jpg
Echinodorus Tenellus http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/p...cfm?pCatId=828
Elodea Densa http://www.aquahobby.com/garden/e_egeria.php
Lemna Minor http://www.plant-identification.co.u...emna-minor.htm
Ludwigia Glandulosa http://www.aquahobby.com/garden/e_Lu...glandulosa.php
Microsorium Pteropus http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/p...cfm?pCatId=800
Nymphoides Aquatica http://www.azgardens.com/images/6root7.jpg
Spathiphyllum Wallisii http://www.tropica.com/productcard_1.asp?id=102
Vallisneria Tortifolia http://www.floridadriftwood.com/vall...tortifolia.htm
Vesicularia Dubyana http://www.aquahobby.com/garden/e_dubyana.php

Animal picture links:

Rana Catesbeiana http://www.fototime.com/9C305703CE6545B/standard.jpg
Xiphophorus Helleri http://www.jackspets.com/freshwaterswordtail.htm
Poecilia Reticulata http://www.jackspets.com/freshwaterguppy.htm
Corydoras Spp. http://www.jackspets.com/freshwaterccatfish.htm

[Ciddian]

Hiyas! sounds very interesting!! I couldnt see your drawing so i had some trouble mapping the layout out in my head... but from what i got it sounds very neat.

Here are just some things i would like to touch on. Watch out with the undergravel filter. All that is going to do for you is suck stuff into the gravel and dirt..trapping it underneath the filter plate. So as long as you can get in there with a syphon and clean it out you will be good. Maybe consider getting a reverse flow on the power head that way the dirt will sit ontop of the gravel and can be easily syphoned from there. Otherwise you might have some nasty spikes happen which might harm your frog.

I'd personally get an canister filter or the biggest filtration you can afford...more surface space the more room for that good bacteria.

Another thing is you might want to figure out what your water temp will be... I know densa does a lot better in cooler waters...densa is great for putting O2 in the water but might mush up on yas if its too warm. You will find out eventually what works and what doesnt.
I think you should shoot for 3-5wats pergallon because you do have some reddy type plants in there and that type is usually more light demanding. I hear the 3-5 will be alright and not to stressful on your lower light plants as well.

Maybe try out the tank without Co2 first and see how it does. Too much Co2 and you will kill your fishies. If you do end up using one... Jungles fiz factorys are pretty neat and not too pricey.

do you think the corys will be safe with your frog? They might be just fine...but i would hate to see your froggie with a cory stuck in its mouth. I dont know if you've picked up a cory before but they stick thier sharp fins outwards as a defence to not be swallowed. You might wanna check that will other frog keepers... i just might be over thinking it.

Also... if you do plan on having any sandy areas you might wish to consider a kuli loach or somthing to dig and turn that over for you. Malyasian snails too a great job at that as well and there are some plant friendly snails out there with awesome shells too that would really look nice...

Thats just a bit of my advice! HTH and good luck!!

[outcold720]

you should use compact fluorsecnts for lighting it. check out www.ahsupply.com

[-okapi-]

Yeah, i dont understand why my pic wont post, its a paint document titled Frog. Does anyone know how to post a picture from paint?
The undergravel filter will be hooked up to a power filter via a tube, so which ever wastes dont go to the power filter will be under the gravel being worked on by the good bacteria and plants roots. The corydoras are also there to keep things clean. Since its housing a big frog (which has big wastes) the suction of a power filter is needed, so i plan on hooking that up to the undergravel filter, but since its gonna be full of small livebearing fish, i dont want a huge filter intake...

Snails? I dont know about that, It seems to me that they overbreed and clog filter intakes with their tiny babies. Ill have to look into them some more though.

I wondered the same thing about corydoras, but i figured since they stay at the bottem and dont like to be out and about during the day, plus they like to hide... I dont know, ill look into that too.

Does anyone know if it is possible/a good idea to hook up a power filter to an undergravel filter?

Well, i gotta go to statistics class . Thanks for all the help, Ill check this post again after 8:00pm tonight.

[-okapi-]

Okay, heres my notes on the things i plan on getting in this vivaria. The water temperature will be in the 70's, and the PH will be about 7. That way all my plants and fish will be in good condition.

Plant: Anubias Nana
Name: Dwarf anubias
Origin: West Africa
Area: Middle
Difficulty: Easy
Light: Any
Temperature: 70-80's
Notes: Rhizome above water

Plant: Acorus Gramineus
Name: Japanese Sweet Flag
Origin: Asia
Area: Land
Difficulty: Unknown
Light: Any
Temperature: 50-80's
Notes: Grows above water

Plant: Aponogeton Crispus
Name: Crinkled Aponogeton
Origin: Asia
Area: Middle
Difficulty: Easy
Light: Bright
Temperature: 70-80's
Notes: Grows from bulb

Plant: Bacopa Caroliniana
Name: Giant Bacopa
Origin: Central America
Area: Back
Difficulty: Easy
Light: Bright
Temperature: 70-80's
Notes: Grows in groups

Plant: Echinodorus Tenellus
Name: Pygmy Chain Sword Plant
Origin: North & South America
Area: Front
Difficulty: Normal
Light: Normal-Bright
Temperature: 70-80's
Notes: Grows runners

Plant: Eldodea Densa
Name: Pondweed/Elodea
Origin: North America
Area: Front right corner
Difficulty: Easy
Light: Moderate-Bright
Temperature: 60-70's
Notes: Grows Fast

Plant: Lemna Minor
Name: Duckweed
Origin: Worldwide
Area: Floating
Difficulty: Easy
Light: Any
Temperature: 50-80's
Notes: Grows Fast

Plant: Ludwigia Glandulosa
Name: Glandular/Red star Ludwigia
Origin: North America
Area: Back right corner
Difficulty: Easy
Light: Bright
Temperature: 70-80's
Notes: Grows Fast

Plant: Microsorium Pteropus
Name: Java Fern
Origin: Asia
Area: Driftwood
Difficulty: Easy
Light: Normal
Temperature: 60-80's
Notes: Attach to wood/rock.

Plant: Nymphoides Aquatica
Name: Banana Plant
Origin: North America
Area: Middle
Difficulty: Normal
Light: Bright
Temperature: 60-80's
Notes: Keep "Banana roots" above substrate

Plant: Spathiphyllum Wallisii
Name: Peace Lily
Origin: South America
Area: Middle
Difficulty: Easy
Light: Any
Temperature: 60-80's
Notes: Bog plant

Plant: Vallisneria Tortifolia
Name: Twisted/Dwarf Vallisneria
Origin: Asia
Area: Middle
Difficulty: Easy
Light: Bright
Temperature: 70-80's
Notes: Forms daughter plants

Plant: Vesicularia Dubyana
Name: Java Moss
Origin: Asia
Area: Rocks
Difficulty: Easy
Light: Any
Temperature: 60-80's
Notes: Grows fast

Fish: Xiphophorus Helleri
Name: Green Swordtail
Origin: Central America
Difficulty: Easy
PH: 7
Temperature: 60-70's
Notes: Inbreeding causes no problems, livebearer

Fish: Poecilia Reticulata
Name: Guppy
Origin: South America
Difficulty: Easy
PH: 7
Temperature: 60-80's
Notes: Hardy, prolific livebearer, active, social

Fish: Corydoras Sp.
Name: Cory Catfish
Origin: South America
Difficulty: Easy
PH: 7
Temperature: 70's
Notes: Nocturnal

[Ciddian]

You could probably rig up somthing of the sort. I know you can get powerheads with pre filters. What you might want to do is head to a big als or good fish shop and talk plumbing with them. Maybe they can help you out there.
As long as you keep your undergravel filter clean by pushing a syphon down to the filter grill (when doing a gravel clean) you will be fine. Its when it gets clogged where it can work against you.

The plants look great too! They have some neat think flouresents now that arent that expencive. Power compacts are awesome to have.. but can get pricey. (its worth the money though... dont skimp on your filtration or lighting)

Hope you can get help with that!

[-okapi-]

There are 5 petstores in my general area, ill check with a few of them.

[galad]

You could go to a store that sells plumbing supllies to talk plumbing.

Also if your making a natural vivarium and you know where all your plants originate from. Why not just use plants all from the same area? Chances are they will go better together then plants from the other side of the world, and i personaly think it amkes more sence to set up a vivarium with all the plants from one region. You are trying to make a mini eco system so when not use plants that co-exist in nature together?

Just a thought, you can obviously do what you want.

peace

ws

[-okapi-]

My first idea was to make the vivaria with plants and with minnows from north america, for my north american frog. However the plant selection wasnt that good, they either grew too tall, needed seasonal changes, needed different water conditions than eachother, etc. The "minnows" either grow large, need refrigerated water in the winter, or wont reproduce in an aquarium. So, while reading about aquarium plants and fish i realized that there are so many better choices that can go in an aquarium. Java moss may not be a north american plant, but it will fill in the nich as an aquatic plant growing on driftwood, and so on. Plus the plants i chose look good, grow well in aquariums, survive at normal room temperatures, and will do fine at a neutral ph. For the fish i looked into "minnows" from florida to ohio, and found out that most "minnows" grow to 10 inches or more, dont thrive in an aquarium, or could introduce parasites and bad bacteria. I want fish that will survive in an aquarium, provide CO2 and food for the plants, and can keep their populations up even if my frog eats a few. Since its a heavily planted aquarium and most fish eat their eggs, i decided on guppies and swordtails. As livebearers their fry will have a chance to survive in all the plants. Swordtails dont have any problems with inbreeding, and i personally think the wild form aka "green swordtail" with its pale colors and medium size has the "minnow look" that i wanted. Guppies (the wild form) which are commonly sold cheap as feeders are hardy, and i also think that they look more like the "minnow" i had pictured in my head. The cory catfish, which i still dont know if i will put in, are more there to blend in and keep things clean.

[aeronautica86]

Originally Posted by -okapi-

Yeah, i dont understand why my pic wont post, its a paint document titled Frog. Does anyone know how to post a picture from paint?

the pic doesn't show up for a number of reasons:

1. all you have is part of the filename - no file location
2. you have no file extention...every file has to have an extention..pics are usually .jpg, .bmp, .gif, etc...
3. the pic needs to be hosted on a file server somewhere, no just sitting on your computer...

go to photobucket.com and sign up for a free account, upload the pic, then copy the text under the pic by the IMG tag and paste it here....

[Ciddian]

Hmm ok, after reading over your first discription is to sugest that you might wanna try a fluval external canister or a lesser model. If you can snag an ehiem go for it. That way you can rig it up to connect to your UGF as your intake and you could use a spray bar for your outtake.
That way you shouldnt really have to worry about loosing fish or fry in the intake.
If you go with a normal Powerfilter you could eather go internal...or external. Your powerheads on the lift tubes of the UGF will provide a bit of filtration.. but i am not sure if it would be enough for the 55 gallon. You might wish to throw a Big Aquaclear on the back and slice a foam square, placing that over the intake. Big fish dont really get sucked up but fry can. If you have a lot of plants and matting plants fry should be safe in there.

Just because its a bigger tank is why you might want to get a canister. A trip to the plumbing store is a great idea... or you could call dan hamilton at bigalsonline.com. He is a hell of a lot better at figuring out filter plumbing than i am... just be prepared to wait on hold for a bit lol 1-888-8-BIGALS (1-888-824-4257.

Other than that... i know there are a few on here who dab into the fish keeping and know plumbing better than me.. I'll try to point them to your post to help you.
OOhh! and i forgot... how high will you have the water in your tank?

[-okapi-]

Thanks! The water will be filled up about 2/3's of the way. Its possible to hook up an external canister to an U.G.F.? good ! I plan on hooking up the out-take tube of the UGF to the intake tube of my filter, so wastes will be pulled down under the gravel and into the filter. Ill run both ideas past petstore employees.

[Ciddian]

it should be ok to do, they might feed you some stuff about your water level being too low for a canister... But if you do it right and have it sealed together nicely it should work...
it would work well if it does.... I was worried about there being enough flow, but in a 55 gallon it should be plenty.

Its all theory in my head though... never tried it myself lol

[galad]

Im not to sure if hooking up a canister to a UGF would work that well. the intake might be strong enough to pull debris through the gravel, but it might only get a certain amount of suction near the opening to pull debris down but I dont know about the whole thing. If you could splice the intake to have it sucking from two ends it might work. Is that big of a frogs waste going to be able to be sucked down through the gravel to be sucked up by the filter?
Sorry just dont know how solid a frogs waste is.

Also I know from experience that putting to big of a foam block on the end of the intake of a aquaclear will be to hard on the motor, and sooner then later it will burn out.