black rat as cobra training?

Reticsrule · 09-14-05, 08:43 PM

PLEASE DO NOT TREAT THIS AS A STUPID OR IMMATURE QUESTION. i am just curious. i have heard people say that aggressive non venomous snakes are good training for venomous ones. i have also heard that this is completely false and nothing can prepare you for a hot except a hot. eventually i would like to get into venomous snakes someday(NOT NOW) and if i felt comfortable enough with the idea, i would like to someday get a cobra(probably monocled). i live in pennsylvania and black rat snakes are fairly common here. if i found an AGGRESSIVE 4+ ft. one and kept it and treated it as a cobra(use hooks, tongs etc.) would that provide any training for a real cobra? ONCE AGAIN IM JUST CURIOUS SO PLEASE DONT START FLAMING AT ME.

ydnic · 09-14-05, 09:27 PM

In india they do use rats snakes as practice for new workers in cobra rehabilitation centers, bceause they do move a act a lot like a cobra as they are highly aware of their sorroundings. I believe they use mainly asian species of rat snakes as they tend to be a bit more agressive. A radiated rat snake does act a lot like a cobra in my opinion. They even puff their neck (oppossitely) like a cobra.

Although, just like you stated nothing but a HOT can be like handling HOT.... However I wouldn`t suggest getting a HOT, especially to a 14yr old....

You really need to ask youself why you would be considdering a vemnomous reptile in the first place...I would like to encourage you to get a Rat snake anyways, you will love how active and alert they are - and after you own one or two you may find yourself happy with them...

Reticsrule · 09-14-05, 09:48 PM

as far as "pet" snakes go, ill stick with my boas and pythons(just my personal preference). i have found a few black rats in the wild and most of them have been really aggressive so i was wondering if the theory about them being good "cobra training snakes" was true. thanks for your input though

and dont worry, if i ever do get a venomous snake it wont be until i have my own house and a lot of experience with other snakes.

ydnic · 09-14-05, 10:06 PM

Your welcome - but as far as taking a black rat out of its habitat, I think that would be a very questionable move on any keepers part. If anything get it as a CB and raise it yourself with very little handling and I am sure it will serve its purpose.

moses nomad · 09-15-05, 02:07 AM

well i own several cobras myself
2.2 banded cobras from egypt
2.1 snubnose cobras from africa
1.1 white lpped bush cobras from africa
10.20 spitting cobras from africa,aisa,china, mosenbueque reds
2.2 coral cobras from afica

now what im saying is that i do know cobras and they are nasty snakes who will rush and run away to rush and keep rushing biteing wildly all the time.
cobra,s have a diffrent style than other snakes they tend to think and act diffrently.
ive had cobras that are really passive one minute and crazy half an hour later. some will bit once while others will bite repeadly.
now ive met alot of people who tell me that they would never be afraid and just jump in and thats a dangerous attitude mainly cause every time i open the tanks for feeding or cleaning im weary and wonder what will it be like today?
my opinon and thats all it is, is that you find someone who breeds such snakes and train under a trained eye.
moses

moses nomad · 09-15-05, 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ydnic

Your welcome - but as far as taking a black rat out of its habitat, I think that would be a very questionable move on any keepers part. If anything get it as a CB and raise it yourself with very little handling and I am sure it will serve its purpose.

when you touch a wild snake you put the snake under such stress that it could die.
and the parasite that come from such snakes could be spread through your other snakes

Gregg M · 09-15-05, 06:05 AM

No non venomous will ever train you or prepare you to deal with a venomous species..... The thing is they act differently and no matter how good your imagination is, you will never treat a non venomous the same as you would a hot snake..... You need to find someone who works with the animal you would like to keep and train under them.......

Quote:

Originally Posted by moses nomad

when you touch a wild snake you put the snake under such stress that it could die.

I am not too sure I agree with this statement.... Sure there is some stress put on any wild animal when handled but chances are, it will be fine after being let go....

Quote:

Originally Posted by moses nomad

and the parasite that come from such snakes could be spread through your other snakes

The same can be said for any captive born or long term captive in ones collection.... I would hope by now, most people wash their hands after handling any reptile and that the practice a proper quarentine period before introducing ANY new stock into their collection even if it is captive born stock....

rrrrr · 09-15-05, 08:54 AM

I'm not a hot keeper, so take this with a grain of salt. This question has been asked a dozen or so times, and the experienced hot keepers always say that non-venomous snakes dont really act like venomous snakes. These people are wise, and know what they're talking about. That said, most keepers of non-venomous snakes are not nearly proficient enough with handling tools (hooks, tongs, tubes etc...) to even START on hot handling. So while I agree that handling rat snakes is not going to prepare you for cobras, I think it might help you become more comfortable with the tools of the trade. For example, I have tried working an aggressive juvenile cribo with just hooks. It went badly and I ended up having to grab him by the tail at one point when he dropped off and made a break for it. Clearly there is a LOT I could learn from practicing further with non-venomous snakes, and I am nowhere near ready for hots.

Reticsrule · 09-15-05, 08:46 PM

thanks for the advice everyone! i was just throwing the question out there. i wanted to see what kind of replies i got to it and now i know. keep the advive coming though

cottonmouth89 · 09-16-05, 03:56 PM

I would suggest getting a black racer if you want a snake that moves like a elapid. Another one would be a coachwhip too. I have also heard that large wild-caught cribo snakes also can be a good learning snake. I have worked with cobras and I still would say a racer. Racers are fast and aggresive. They love to try to bite you and they will try to go for your face too. I would say if you want a snake that is like a pit viper, I would suggest getting a big mean water snake. They mimic them greatly.

Reticsrule · 09-16-05, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cottonmouth89

I would say if you want a snake that is like a pit viper, I would suggest getting a big mean water snake. They mimic them greatly.

i know a lake near me where there are tons of water snakes and the few that i have caught in there were really aggressive and at least 3 feet long. since a copperhead will most likely be my first hot this does seem like a very good idea because the water snakes are very similar to copperheads. the problem is, can you keep a water snake without water? lol and since they would probably be feeding on fish in the wild would you be able to switch them over to f/t rodents? thanks for the tip, i never really thought about a copperhead mimic.

cottonmouth89 · 09-16-05, 08:35 PM

What you can do is just give the snake a huge water bowl so that it can soak in. You can buy fish at a local bait shop if you have one near or you can catch small ones, but you will have to freeze them for atleast 3 to 4 weeks. That will make sure all parasites are killed. Also you can get sardines at a grocery store and blend them up in a blender and make a past that you can dip pinkies in and scent them that way. Also you can try using a fish oil found in the asian part of a grocery store. Also you can catch frogs if you like and freeze them like you would the fish so you can make sure that if their is any parasites they are killed.

Good Luck

Reticsrule · 09-16-05, 09:16 PM

i really wouldnt want to feed fish and frogs. i like the idea of having a frozen bag of mice in the freezer and all you have to do is take one out and let it thaw. if it would be possible to feed it f/t rodents then i would go possibly go for it but i dont want to have to go catch stuff for it. i also dont really love the idea of giving them a big water bowl. if its necessary then its necessary but i would prefer not to if i didnt have to. also, there is no way that i can get another snake at the moment. my mom doesnt like them and i already have two boas that are at different houses(dads and grandparents). it also depends on what i find while im out herping. i really dont like any of the non venomous species native to pennsylvania and if i did keep a black rat or a northern water snake they would be for venomous training purposes only. if im unlucky while herping and i never find a suitable specimen and by some miracle i was allowed to get another snake, i would go for another boa or python.

cottonmouth89 · 09-16-05, 11:37 PM

Well I do not know much to tell you. If you are extremely lucky you might find a water snake that eats mice but they mostly stick to fish and frogs. I personally don't keep them for several reasons 1. any non-venomous snakes native to Georgia is illegal to keep without permit and 2. I do not like feeding my snakes frogs or fish. You would pretty much have to start out with fish or frogs and slowly change over to mice. I know many people that have done that.

jparker1167 · 09-18-05, 03:33 AM

hey im in pa, i live in ellwood city, do you go to the show in butler, a friend of is a vendor at the shows in pa and he keeps hots and im sure if you went to the show you could ask him some stuff he also sells frozen rodents so you could prob go pick some up form him and you could see the cobras and everything in person. deffenatly get more experience with other snakes before you get hots. email me if ya want his name

jparker1167@hotmai.com