Inbreed reptiles!

[monty bl python]

I have seen lots of people that say that they have breed the original snake with its offspring (especially morph snakes) but couldn’t t this present a problem. In dogs and other species this causes mental and physical defect. there has been inbreed human children without body parts, retardation, or even extra body parts. On this site people have said beware of inbreed bearded dragons but some one else has suggested that someone should breed a grader snake with its offspring to get more albinos.

My questions is why is it ok to have a inbreed snake but not a inbreed lizard. :medlotsae

[End Times]

Well, I'm no expert and am for the most part new to reptiles owning only a single ball python at this time and having owned anoles in the past and on one lengthy occasion I babysay a ball for someone else, but I think it goes like this:

Obviously inbred genes aren't as strong as a proper set of non-related genes given by non-related parents. As you said, people generally do it with morphs. The reasons are A) to create new morphs, and B) to save money. It's far cheaper to buy a 100% het, breed it to a normal, giving you possible hets, and then breeding the offspring when they come of age back to the 100% het parent. This gives you a chance of hatching out say an albino having only really spent the money on a single 100% het rather than like $3000 for an albino ball... It's a cheaper alternative that some see as an alright way to go about something.... On the other hand, when some new magical morph first comes out with one and only one unusual snake then there isn't much choice but to inbreed in order to try to create a second snake with the same mutation.

All in all.... is it harmful for the snakes? If overdone I imagine it would be so... but as long as the lines aren't overly inbred, then usually the animals are healthy. Is it alright to do this? Well, that's a whole other thread where people will start talking about the morality of it all.....

[mykee]

You also have to understand that people are constantly adding new blood to any given "line" that is being bred. When I breed my morph balls, I ALWAYS breed it to an unrelated mate, as I would imagine most do. There are occasions, especially with morphs, that I breed a Mom to her son, Dad to his daughter, or sibs, but new blood always has to be introduced to the lines being bred.

[Linds]

Nonsense.

Inbreeding doesn't create weak genes, in fact quite the opposite. It simply intensifies things, which is why people need to be careful. It can be used to make things better, but it can also bring out underlying problems. In some cases, outcrossing can even be harmful to animals, such is the case with specific populations. Inbreeding doesn't cause any different defects that can be found in breeding two unrelated animals as well.

[gonesnakee]

Inbreeding can bring out both the positive & also the negative traits in specimens. If overdone if creates lots of problems such as small weak non feeding offspring, high infertility in eggs (some very small fertile eggs also) & malformed under developed babies or ones that just up & die in the first week or 2. I have worked with Corns that have been too interbred before as have friends of mine & we all experienced the same problems. Most of them had came from the same founding stock that had already been interbred too much (didn't know that until all the problems surfaced after growing the stock up & breeding them) & the stock we tried out from it failed miserably despite "mixing it up some". Females also had egg binding & prolapse problems. The line they came from had apparrently been bred together for 2 or 3 generations & it should not have been done without outcrossing them more as the "line" had to be "dropped" due to all the issues & new blood was introduced. Mark

[Jeff_Favelle]

You cannot "create" genes. Inbreeding, outbreeding, line breeding, whatever, genes cannot be created. The only thing that can do that is either mutation or genetic engineering. Neither of which are affected by inbreeding.

The only thing inbreeding does is the lining up of like alleles. That's it. If the bad alleles aren't there to begin with, no amount of inbreeding is going to produce 3-eyed, two headed monsters.

[monty bl python]

so what you all are saying is that it isnt bad for the animal to do this but that you just have to be careful

[Linds]

Basically yes. Try to choose only the outwardly strongest animals, and if anything pops up, you know what you need to correct/discontinue. The tricky thing about breeding anything in captivity is survival of the fittest has been removed, so regardless of whether or not you outcross, you carry a certain risk of breeding weak animals.

[gonesnakee]

Good points Jeff/Linds. Thats what I was trying to get across sort of, but genetics isn't my strongest field LOL. It brings out the best, but also brings out the worst & often does. These "visual" genetic traits we seek because they look cool can also come with some negative ones that can surface in full force if not carefull. People always forget that things such as albinos & leusistics etc. are not considered to be "genetically strong" in nature (ie:"survival of the fittest") but are manipulated by us because they look neat. One must watch how certain breedings work out & as mentioned orginally sometimes projects need to be dropped based on the outcome of the offspring or lack of. As Jeff has stated "creates" isn't a good term as it is misleading but "can bring out" would be more proper. Anyhow IMHO it is always best to use unrelated stock whenever possible & also to consider the making of hets or risk the possible creation of "3 eyed, 2 headed monsters" LOL (been there done that) The line I was orginally refering too was striped corn stock myself & a few friends had worked with in the past. We all experienced the same problems while working with them. They had been inbred for a couple generations prior us obtaining the stock, thus bringing out all the negative traits that had not previously surfaced in the founding stock. Mark
P.S. Big Dan is a good guy to talk genetics too as he does have a degree afterall.

[Stav.T]

Originally Posted by Jeff_Favelle

You cannot "create" genes. Inbreeding, outbreeding, line breeding, whatever, genes cannot be created. The only thing that can do that is either mutation or genetic engineering. Neither of which are affected by inbreeding.

The only thing inbreeding does is the lining up of like alleles. That's it. If the bad alleles aren't there to begin with, no amount of inbreeding is going to produce 3-eyed, two headed monsters.

100% with you you cant explain it better.



Stav

[Jeff_Favelle]

What Mark and Stav said.

[spidergecko]

Originally Posted by Jeff_Favelle

You cannot "create" genes.

This isn't true. When I was in highschool, a girl I knew used to make her own genes. She bought the denim and added some flowers and other decorations herself.

[greenman1867]

Originally Posted by Jeff_Favelle

3-eyed, two headed monsters.

Is anyone producing these this year? If so are you working on any specfic colours schemes or morphs? A Nice flower print would be cool. :medbugged


Good topic, explained very well, thanks Jeff and Linds. This is a topic people sometimes really do not understand, and like a lot of things not understood, gets twisted and "feared" up by people who just don;t know the facts.

Thanks

[JimmyDavid]

In theory, the best way not to spoil the genes of a flawless creature (but is there one?) is , in fact, to breed it to a related animal. But since weak traits don't always stand out, there's always the danger that you could be amplifying something very bad.


Just an observation: Jeff, of course there are ways of creating genes. there's got to be at least one way, but so far nature keeps it as a secret. That's the big puzzle. How do you think life started before there was ever anything to mutate from??? Scientist have theories, but nothing solid.

[Jeff_Favelle]

This isn't true. When I was in highschool, a girl I knew used to make her own genes. She bought the denim and added some flowers and other decorations herself.

Was she hot?